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Old 06-10-2012, 11:13 AM
 
396 posts, read 729,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Of course I agree it's important to them; I've never claimed otherwise.

You might consider Peanut Butter important but don't expect me to get all misty-eyed and supply you with a case a month because you claim you can't live without it.

You can't seem to grasp the concept of what's important to them having little relevance to others, either in Canda or the rest of the world for that matter. We've been busily accommodating them at every turn because of our repugnance at the only alternative they throw on the table. That reluctance on our part however, has been far outweighed by the gradual perception there can be no satisfying this spoiled relative. Ultimately they have poisoned the pool to the point that the ROC is now prepared to answer their cry of "pony up or we leave" with a resounding "WHATEVER".

Now to the point that you also seem to be having trouble grasping; The ROC or the world don't give a rat's patoot about them maintaining their culture, we are ambivilant about it. We do not see the need to entrench laws or assign costs to the ROC.

We do not see the point of any claims made by a minority that it's imperative on the ROC to acquiesce completely to their point of view at the cost of common sense, mutual respect, monetary, with the only option seeming to be "once we have exhausted your willingness to pay bribes, we will still claim you care nothing about us and we're leaving regardless".

This is very much akin to the spoiled teen-ager refusing to accept the terms of the household requiring they clean their room occasionally so threatens to and perhaps even eventually leaves and then wonders who'se going to do the washing, ironing, pay the utilities, provide the car, the TV, the i-pod, the cel-phone data-plan, all provided under the umbrella of the larger economy of the household accounts.

Other's comments, on this long and thorny issue whose beginnings I expect commenced long before you were even born, are just as relavant as your rather childish assertion that the ROC should just suck it up and bend over for every missive issuing from the churlish bastion of the separatiste quarter because, after all; their culture demands and deserves it beyond all reasonable arguments stating otherwise.

You keep up with this stuff of arguing for; we answer: "why" then you state "because". Does this silliness work for you in your daily life exchanges with real humans face-to-face?
alright so you clearly admit that the french feel the way they do, you clearly state you have no interest in there opinion. So whats your point????


You wanna talk about your feelings was that it
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:02 PM
 
34,356 posts, read 41,436,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Ultimately they have poisoned the pool to the point that the ROC is now prepared to answer their cry of "pony up or we leave" with a resounding "WHATEVER".
Well said BruSan.
Quebec has indeed been whining about their lot in life for a generation now,net result is Quebec only stays in the game for the money Ottawa hands out to them and its all too obvious to the rest of Canada,
Obviously most Quebecers dont like Canada or its English population, its now time for Quebec to leave as the rest of Canada is tired of listening and would rather you just go your own way.
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:05 PM
 
18,262 posts, read 10,360,166 times
Reputation: 13314
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
alright so you clearly admit that the french feel the way they do, you clearly state you have no interest in there opinion. So whats your point????


You wanna talk about your feelings was that it
I have every interest in their opinion with the right to disagree with it. Are you so naive to not consider what your particular future would be if Quebec were in fact to secede?

Throughout this thread your "feelings" regarding their case of language being the sole cause for their threatening to leave the confederation as being sufficient to support that action have been at the fore of your thoughts and reasoning.

You need to understand that their "feelings" are misguided and based on tired and ancient teachings beginning with the need to deflect blame for the Quebecer's supposed plight by those in positions of responsibility.

It's those nasty Englais and nothing to do with our own corruption!

Consider carefully before you assume to support your definition of the underdog as that underdog has more control over your very future livelyhood than you might care to have given them were you a logical thinker.

And why not stop with the rather inane personal comments which you introduced to this "game" way back there DUDE!

I'm done now in any case as you've not contributed anything of a valid contrary opinion since your last "just because".
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Old 06-10-2012, 03:42 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 2,031,763 times
Reputation: 1132
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
Would you stop with this game, even ontario(a reciever) is now starting to have trouble with how the resource economy has been distorting there economy, and they're the worst offender by a long shot.
Resource economy? Resource economy?!? Who said anything about the resource economy? Do you have trouble staying on topic? If your rambling here fairly reflects the skills that you have been acquiring at MUN or elsewhere, then you might want to consider studying at another post-secondary institution with all due respect.

And your talk about "governments will continue to protect and promote the use of their languages within the domestic everyday use of their people" suggests an ambivalence at best about the official role that the English language and the people who speak it should play in Quebec, a place that has had the presence of substantial minority of English language speakers there for over 250 years. Don't you get it? The provincial government has made it progressively more difficult for such people to live and work in the English language in Quebec. It has also made it difficult for immigrants to join their ranks should they choose to do so. That kind of cultural engineering is as anachronistic as it is offensive. And appealing to noted bastions of freedom like China, Russia, Prussia, etc., won't do much to strengthen either the logical force or the appeal of your argument (if it can be called that).

"[R]estrict the power of the people to have there (sic) own democracy work in there (sic) direct interest"? What are you going on about here? The only people whose power is being restricted are those people who might prefer to live, to work, and/or to study in the English language, a language that has had a vital and important presence in Quebec for over 250 years! A minority has been oppressed by a majority. Is that something about which people should feel proud?

"looking at western europe, it's easy to say the population of quebec would be pretty much like the netherlands where nearly the entire population speaks english, furthermore, because they are in a country with mostly anglophones, they'd have to have preference for that english in schools" -- I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Is this a statement of fact or something?

"Yeah because that place called europe is just non stop craziness" -- When the lingua franca of business is English, and not French, then, yes, 101 and 178 look like complete madness, even to the Europeans. By the way, given that much of Europe is struggling terribly right now, I don't know if arguments like this do much to strengthen whatever kind of convoluted and difficult to follow argument you are trying to make here.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:31 PM
 
396 posts, read 729,556 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
Resource economy? Resource economy?!? Who said anything about the resource economy? Do you have trouble staying on topic? If your rambling here fairly reflects the skills that you have been acquiring at MUN or elsewhere, then you might want to consider studying at another post-secondary institution with all due respect.
It was to someone elses comment, I clarified.
And your talk about "governments will continue to protect and promote the use of their languages within the domestic everyday use of their people" suggests an ambivalence at best about the official role that the English language and the people who speak it should play in Quebec, a place that has had the presence of substantial minority of English language speakers there for over 250 years. Don't you get it? The provincial government has made it progressively more difficult for such people to live and work in the English language in Quebec.
I'll agree they were caught in the cross fire, and I think it's stupid, but considering the other angle which is their language should just be ignored is a bit much
It has also made it difficult for immigrants to join their ranks should they choose to do so. That kind of cultural engineering is as anachronistic as it is offensive. And appealing to noted bastions of freedom like China, Russia, Prussia, etc., won't do much to strengthen either the logical force or the appeal of your argument (if it can be called that).
Yeah because immigrants in toronto aren't expected to learn the local language.
"[R]estrict the power of the people to have there (sic) own democracy work in there (sic) direct interest"? What are you going on about here? The only people whose power is being restricted are those people who might prefer to live, to work, and/or to study in the English language, a language that has had a vital and important presence in Quebec for over 250 years! A minority has been oppressed by a majority. Is that something about which people should feel proud?
no not at all, but what else can you expect in this situation, if outside of quebec people don't care they're isn't alot of choices.
"looking at western europe, it's easy to say the population of quebec would be pretty much like the netherlands where nearly the entire population speaks english, furthermore, because they are in a country with mostly anglophones, they'd have to have preference for that english in schools" -- I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Is this a statement of fact or something?
It's a pretty realistic prediction, unless you know of cases which suggest the opposite.
"Yeah because that place called europe is just non stop craziness" -- When the lingua franca of business is English, and not French, then, yes, 101 and 178 look like complete madness, even to the Europeans. By the way, given that much of Europe is struggling terribly right now, I don't know if arguments like this do much to strengthen whatever kind of convoluted and difficult to follow argument you are trying to make here.
I never said the laws are perfect, but something had to happen, and I sincerely doubt the problems of europe are caused by multilingualism.
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Old 06-10-2012, 06:59 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 2,031,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmaq32 View Post
I never said the laws are perfect, but something had to happen, and I sincerely doubt the problems of europe are caused by multilingualism.
Nonsense. This is cultural genocide, pure and simple. Nothing "had to happen". People should be free to live, to work, and to study in the same languages that they have always done since the founding of this country. You don't like English? Fine, then you don't have to learn it. In the absence of this governmental interference in Quebec, people would have learned English because it was the language that prevailed in North America and it is the language of international business. Had it been French that prevailed, then those Anglo-Quebecers would have learned -- wait for it -- French.

And your point about immigrants to Toronto isn't well-founded. Has the Government of Ontario forced those immigrants to use English language lettering at least twice the size of the lettering that they use in their native tongue on business signs? Has the Government of Ontario blocked access to French language schools for the children of those immigrants, forcing them into English language schools? Has the Government of Ontario seen fit to dictate what language predominates in workplaces with more than 50 employees? Does the Government of Ontario have language police (well, other than human rights types, anyway)?

You have to make a compelling business case for people to want to learn French, not to force it down people's throats by diktat. My people almost universally lost their language because it was banned, and then as they became more educated, they adopted English. Do I lament for its loss? No, I don't. That has much to do with the fact that English is so useful, but also to do with the fact that the old tongue was so limiting. Times move on. Nothing is static. Change is often inevitable and fighting it sometimes makes very little sense.

Last edited by maclock; 06-10-2012 at 07:18 PM..
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,326,583 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
They want you to spell their demonym correctly.
Actually, both Quebecer and Quebecker are accepted spellings. Of course, most people simply use Québécois.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,326,583 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
My people almost universally lost their language because it was banned, and then as they became more educated, they adopted English. Do I lament for its loss? No, I don't. That has much to do with the fact that English is so useful, but also to do with the fact that the old tongue was so limiting. Times move on. Nothing is static. Change is often inevitable and fighting it sometimes makes very little sense.
No language is inherently limiting. Languages are ''limited'' in their use (usually by ''others'') but are not limiting per se. Your people's language was lost because they were dominated by English speakers, who imposed their language and ''limited'' the use of their original language, which in turn made the people view it as ''limiting''.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,326,583 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by maclock View Post
Rather, why don't you do that? The international marketplace has picked a lingua franca for us, and that lingua franca happens to be English. Who knows what it'll be 100 years from now? It could be any of Mandarin, Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Spanish, or Portuguese. English could also remain the lingua franca. It's anyone's guess.

If people want their language to survive and to thrive, then they have to want for it to do so independent of government meddling and intervention. No amount of government regulation or fiat will ensure such survival or will encourage languages to flourish. Quebec's language laws are inimical to free expression and to freedom generally. The only thing that they seem to have accomplished is to frustrate and/or to prevent the centuries-old English language minority from living and working in its own mother tongue and to stop many parents from educating their children in the more dominant of Canada's two official languages. These laws are severely alienating, they are counterproductive, and they are antagonistic.

.
Perhaps you should ask people who live on that lingua franca's frontline in southern California, south Texas and south Florida, how they feel about going with the flow linguistically and just letting things happen as they will.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,937 posts, read 27,326,583 times
Reputation: 8601
Just reading so many of the comments here you really have to pity the Québécois.

Having so few redeeming human qualities...
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