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Old 10-16-2009, 07:31 PM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,661,748 times
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The Lazarus that is the brother of Mary and Martha in John 11 is wealthy. The Lazarus that is in Hades in Luke 16 is a begger. They are not the same man. Lazarus was a common name.

Lazarus and his sisters were personal friends of Jesus, and he stayed with them often when he was in the area.
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:31 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
If Christ was speaking to the pharisees, then you would expect him to use language and names of people who they would recognize.
LOL...Invented reason if I ever saw one...

The truth is that Jesus told a lot of stories about a lot of people, , He even told stories that were aimed at pharisees that were rather harsh...and people got the connections even if they didn't come with names attached.

If you tell the right story in the right manner, people make the connection...
I "expect" Christ told a great story ...

Only here when dealing with Lazarus did Jesus make sure we knew the guy's personal name.

To think this story is anything but a real account of a real guy is a stretch...

I have read this whole topic, I have looked at all the information about this guy in the story..

The answer I have come to is that there is about a 80% chance that the Lazarus in the story is the same guy as Mary's brother...
Its not a sure thing
But there is a strong hint that it is...but there is always the chance of it not being the same guy
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:33 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,819,724 times
Reputation: 1302
No one talks more about hell than Jesus. Jesus says of those who go to hell that He says to them, ..Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Again, "never means never" That is so complete that those who end up in hell aren't called by name. You lose everything....even your name.

They way I have been lead to believe about Lazuras and the rich man is that it could be both...actual and an example

Reasons that it maybe Actual:
  • The chasm is real. There is no getting out of hell, it's finality for the unbeliever's soul and someday the reunited body and soul will be condemned, as the YLT puts it "the age after judgement".
  • "the age after judgement" is forever
  • there was actual men by the name of Lazuras and Abraham
  • there probably was an actual rich man that Lazuras begged from
  • that the rich man had brothers
  • after death you're immediately in one or the other place
  • faith on earth is the determining factor for Lazuras, unbelief for the rich man
  • those in hell are unable to comfort themself
  • Nothing will convince unbelievers other than God's Word.
Reasons that it maybe a example to what will happen as an object lesson:
  • outside this account, we do not read of any communication between those in heaven and hell
  • being in the bossom of Abraham is probably a reference to the promise to Abraham being the father of many nations
  • If that is so, Lazuras represents believers and the rich man unbelievers
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:34 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
How interesting...was it Mary or Martha that anointed Jesus, or are their names the same to?

Well both names(Mary and Martha) have something to do with rebellion. Its an interesting question ... I will ponder this ...
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:36 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
LOL...Invented reason if I ever saw one...

The truth is that Jesus told a lot of stories about a lot of people, , He even told stories that were aimed at pharisees that were rather harsh...and people got the connections even if they didn't come with names attached.

If you tell the right story in the right manner, people make the connection...
I "expect" Christ told a great story ...

Only here when dealing with Lazarus did Jesus make sure we knew the guy's personal name.

To think this story is anything but a real account of a real guy is a stretch...

I have read this whole topic, I have looked at all the information about this guy in the story..

The answer I have come to is that there is about a 80% chance that the Lazarus in the story is the same guy as Mary's brother...
Its not a sure thing
But there is a strong hint that it is...but there is always the chance of it not being the same guy

To think that God who is love would torture people for any reason at all is a stretch if ever i knew one ...
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:36 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,892 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Yes... I would say it teachs that those who are given much (the rich man dressed in fine linen etc.) but squander what they are given by God, will suffer for it, and their inheritance is given to another.
Hmmmm, where have I heard that before - to whom much is given, much is expected... the unfaithful servant will lose what little he has... sounds like some of Jesus' other PARABLES.
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:51 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
Reputation: 241
Iron, the reason I asked you about the names of Mary and Martha is that you sure present yourself as some type of good Bible student with all the information you have posted.

Boy it sure has been fun and interesting to learn all this stuff about names that appear in the Bible.

So I was just making sure I understood your teachings correctly on the whole Mary/Martha issue...
(You do still stand behind what you posted right?)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
.....

Lazarus was the brother of Martha, and we are told that Martha had anointed Christ with a very expensive oil.
In the gospel of Luke the house in which Martha anointed Christ feet was said to be her own..
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,632,156 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
No one talks more about hell than Jesus. Jesus says of those who go to hell that He says to them, ..Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Again, "never means never" That is so complete that those who end up in hell aren't called by name. You lose everything....even your name.

They way I have been lead to believe about Lazuras and the rich man is that it could be both...actual and an example

Reasons that it maybe Actual:
  • The chasm is real. There is no getting out of hell, it's finality for the unbeliever's soul and someday the reunited body and soul will be condemned, as the YLT puts it "the age after judgement".
  • "the age after judgement" is forever
  • there was actual men by the name of Lazuras and Abraham
  • there probably was an actual rich man that Lazuras begged from
  • that the rich man had brothers
  • after death you're immediately in one or the other place
  • faith on earth is the determining factor for Lazuras, unbelief for the rich man
  • those in hell are unable to comfort themself
  • Nothing will convince unbelievers other than God's Word.
Reasons that it maybe a example to what will happen as an object lesson:
  • outside this account, we do not read of any communication between those in heaven and hell
  • being in the bossom of Abraham is probably a reference to the promise to Abraham being the father of many nations
  • If that is so, Lazuras represents believers and the rich man unbelievers
Who is the greatest persuader you know?

Paul
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:54 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Iron, the reason I asked you about the names of Mary and Martha is that you sure present yourself as some type of good Bible student with all the information you have posted.

Boy it sure has been fun and interesting to learn all this stuff about names that appear in the Bible.

So I was just making sure I understood your teachings correctly on the whole Mary/Martha issue...
(You do still stand behind what you posted right?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
.....

Lazarus was the brother of Martha, and we are told that Martha had anointed Christ with a very expensive oil.
In the gospel of Luke the house in which Martha anointed Christ feet was said to be her own..
Of course i stand behind it, perhaps my memory of the story is flawed. But if i remember correctly what i said was accurate. But in the other Gospels where this "apparently the same" story is told, it is written that it was Simon the lepers house. What is your point?
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:58 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
, it is written that it was Simon the lepers house. What is your point?
Im not really asking about your teaching on who owned the house...


I just want to make sure I understood what you are saying..

and I guess I have because this is the 3rd time now you have confirmed the fact that it was Martha who did the anointing.


(and I think this is about the 4th time I have tried to point this out to you....So far my attempts have all the reaction as BBs bouncing off a brick wall)

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-16-2009 at 08:11 PM..
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