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I am still looking for an exegetical rebuttal of the OP and link provided. Still nothing from UR.
Really? Well - when an article starts with a total fabrication:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
Univiersalism is unbiblical. It leaves the way of truth and places Jesus Christ on the periphery of God’s plan of redemption. It declares repentance out of date, the born-again experience unnecessary
In Biblical UR Jesus Christ is the centerpiece for all EXISTENCE. Repentance ultimately comes to all as well as rebirth. The opening of the article shows the writer does not understand the first thing about UR so why should anyone try to rebut? There's nothing there to rebut.
You said in summery that you made a choice to believe in Christ, and because of that choice to believe you are saved.
Christ doesn't come by in a boat and offer to save us, he snatches us up out of whatever situation we are in and renews our minds. He recreates us ... He makes us new, and then we believe.
So if that is the case then what is the point of the last 2000 years of human existence? Why are we here? So, then it is God's fault for things like the holocaust? I mean why didn't He just snatch up Hitler and recreate him, if Hitler had no say so in the matter? What about Charles Manson and all the serial killers since the cross? Are you starting to see were that reasoning just makes no sense? Why do you think God even put the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil in the Garden in the first place? If we weren't to have any say in the matter, why not just leave it out all together? If we have no say then what is Christ waiting for? Why hasn't He returned yet? Why not just show Himself to the world and make everyone believe?
No that is not what i am saying, i am saying that when we are held accountable by God for our actions it will be for the purpose of Correction and not merely to suffer. It was God who created Satan and at least allowed evil and sin to take over the world(according to fundamental Christianity) ...
Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
It was because of the sin of one man(Adam) that we are all made sinners, and it is because of the obedience of one man that we will all be made righteous.
It is not because of my own actions that i was made a sinner, and it is not because of my own actions that i will be made righteous either ...
Wow! So, how can God hold us accountable when, according to you, we lack the ability to know right from wrong? How can He hold us accountable when He is the one that is suppose to "decide" for us? God did not create Satan, God created Lucifer and gave him the freedom of CHOICE. Lucifer CHOSE to become Satan, when he chose to let pride and selfishness take over. You really need to understand the simple concept of CHOICE and how vitally important it is to God.
Oh, and btw, notice how Romans 5:19 said that many shall be made righteous, not all.
God is what he is, he is the light and the truth and he is LOVE ... God simply is what he is.
You seem to forget that God can be whatever He chooses to be. He could most definitely be a malevolent God, but He has chosen to be benevolent, and we are blessed because of it.
So if that is the case then what is the point of the last 2000 years of human existence? Why are we here? So, then it is God's fault for things like the holocaust? I mean why didn't He just snatch up Hitler and recreate him, if Hitler had no say so in the matter? What about Charles Manson and all the serial killers since the cross? Are you starting to see were that reasoning just makes no sense? Why do you think God even put the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil in the Garden in the first place? If we weren't to have any say in the matter, why not just leave it out all together? If we have no say then what is Christ waiting for? Why hasn't He returned yet? Why not just show Himself to the world and make everyone believe?
When I first started studying UR, those were my questions. They are very difficult questions!
Why do YOU think God put the most cunning, manipulative, murderous, lying creature that ever existed with two of the most innocent and ignorant creatures that ever existed?? (if you do, indeed, believe in the traditional Satan and Adam and Eve story).
If you read the link below it will explain some of this. I wouldn't mind if somebody could try and refute what this guy is saying. I can't, really.
I personally believe that we were to see what happens when humanity tries to run things! A lesson NO ONE will forget!
But, I do believe that everyone will reap what they sow! Everyone!
Anyway,much of what is going on hera has to do with FAITH! Some of us are in training; the elect, I believe. Faith produces better soldiers. If you follow Him HERE of all places, where you CANT even SEE Him, and are in miserable conditions, why wouldn't you follow Him when you DO finally see HIM, and are in BETTER conditions.
He needs those elect to help Him rule and reign. Who and what will we be ruling and reigning over?
By the way, people were so scared of Saul before he became Paul that they wouldn't believe him when he said he had converted. Didn't want him around.
Christ was MURDERED rather gruesomly by a vicious group of men who spit on Him, mocked Him, and nailed Him to a tree!!!!
What were some of His last words??
Father, forgive them! Did His dad forgive them?
Last edited by herefornow; 05-17-2010 at 03:18 AM..
HalfNelson, I'm sure you know the love chapter in the bible, 1 Corinthians 13, which says, 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails."
God is Love. When you read the above description of love, does it sound more like someone who will burn forever those He created because they didn't make a wise choice, or does it sound like someone who will eventually save all those he created?
You said there can't be love without a choice, but I don't see that in the bible. What is said is that "perfect love casts out fear." How could one not fear hell if they believe it is a literal lake of fire where the huge majority of mankind is going? One might not fear it for himself if they love God, but is that enough? You can't love your neighbor as yourself and not worry about them if you believe hell is a literal fire.
The words translated "hell" are grave, hiding place, covering, etc., and another word is actually the city dump in Jerusalem. There are other threads concerning this if you are interested. You said you understand that you must be guided by the Holy Spirit to discern scriptures. If you at least wish that God would not burn people for eternity because you love them, pray and ask God to show you whether or not your understanding of hell and His character are truth, and let Him guide you.
First of all I know all about what hell means in scripture and that is why I do not believe in ET, nor do I believe in an immortal soul that can exist without a physical body. I strongly suggest this site if you would like to know what I believe The Bible Truth About Hades and Hell Fire
As to the part about love, I ask you how do you reconcile that with this passage from Revelation 20:11-15?
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Consider that when one is given a true picture of God, and is healed and redeemed from all their carnality, that person will choose God willingly. God can and will do that for every person.
So, are you saying that Adam and Eve did not have a true picture of God in the Garden? And, what then is Revelation 20:11-15 talking about?
Alright, we have a highly figurative book (the Book of Revelation) that says the devil was thrown into the lake of fire. Where does it say that sinners who were reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:18-19) will also be thrown into a lake of fire for eternity? I don't see it, do you?
Still, no words stating that those who have been reconciled to God are thrown into the lake of fire. The text reads "if" anyone's name was not found....Do you see the word "if"? It does not say that anyone's name "was found" missing, does it? Why do you think it does?
Read the whole chapter it makes it very clear that there will be those who's names are not written in the Book of Life.
Revelation 20 (New International Version)
Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Satan's Doom
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Clearly you have two groups of people, those that were part of the 1st resurrection (at Christ's Second Coming), and then those that are part of the 2nd resurrection (after the 1000 years). Scripture makes clear that the 2nd death has no power over the first group, which clearly tells us that it certainly does over the second group. What is the 2nd death? Once again, scripture is clear, the 2nd death is the lake of fire. The 1st group were clearly stated to contain those that did not take the "mark of the beast", indicating that the 2nd group clearly contained those that did. Who is the beast and what is his mark? Here is a site that covers that in great depth. The Mark Of The Beast
If you can choose Christ solely upon your own freewill, then maybe YOU can explain what all these verses mean to us then, because Sir Mike will not answer them for us.
forgive me for truncating your post, but I just wanted to save some space. After reading through several of your texts and reading your interpretation on Peter's situation I started to see where UR's are going off course. People often times cannot draw the distinction between God knowing the future vs Him causing it. Peter's denial of Christ was predicted, but it was not predestined. There is a huge difference. I may know that if I leave cookies in a certain place, my nephew will certainly take one, however he does so out of his own choice, not because I forced him to such an action. God sees the end from the beginning, so he knows what will happen, but that does not mean that He causes it to happen. Christ knew that His own people would reject Him, but that does not mean that He caused them to reject Him. How could Christ have been upset or saddened by Judas' actions if He was the one that caused them? God did not want His people to be disobedient and have to wander in the desert for 40 years, but He knew it was going to happen. God didn't want sin to enter His universe but He saw that it would happen and planned accordingly.
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