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Old 09-12-2018, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,743,366 times
Reputation: 5374

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue View Post
Maryland and Virginia are southern, but DC isn't? Is it an exclave?
You know how I feel about Maryland, stop trying to goad that same old argument out of me for the millionth time. :V
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:58 AM
 
29,946 posts, read 27,424,696 times
Reputation: 18529
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Bull.

How often do you see people from Tennessee trying to claim they are northern? Never. How often do you see people from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and even MICHIGAN trying to claim they are southern? Too dang often.
It's not "bull" at all. DE, MD, and DC used to be considered the South but have all been ceded to the North over time; at the very least, a large percentage of folks in "traditional"/former Confederate states do not consider those places Southern. Again, you just did that yourself with DC and there's also the matter of peninsular FL to consider. On the other hand, I have NEVER seen this phenomenon you speak of regarding PA, OH, IN, and MI and they most certainly haven't been booted out of their native regions by other states in the Midwest and Northeast.

This is probably one of the weirdest perspective I've ever seen here on C-D and one that most certainly doesn't reflect reality. "Northern shame"?!?!?! LOLOLOL

Last edited by Mutiny77; 09-13-2018 at 01:06 AM..
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,743,366 times
Reputation: 5374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
It's not "bull" at all. DE, MD, and DC used to be considered the South but have all been ceded to the North over time; at the very least, a large percentage of folks in "traditional"/former Confederate states do not consider those places Southern. Again, you just did that yourself with DC and there's also the matter of peninsular FL to consider. On the other hand, I have NEVER seen this phenomenon you speak of regarding PA, OH, IN, and MI and they most certainly haven't been booted out of their native regions by other states in the Midwest and Northeast.

This is probably one of the weirdest perspective I've ever seen here on C-D and one that most certainly doesn't reflect reality. "Northern shame"?!?!?! LOLOLOL
You don't pay enough attention then. It's all over this very site! In fact, I had never considered it was possible until this place opened my eyes to how stupid people are.

I know it sounds ridiculous, and it is. That's my point. However, I am NOT making this crap up. Look around this. Very. Site. Go through the millions of what is southern or not threads. It ain't just Maryland we're talking about.

Come on, now, you don't have a be a jerk about it. (LOLOLOL? Really? Are you fourteen?)

It's been shown, also on this very site, why Maryland and Delaware are not truly southern states, over and over and over again. Users have backed it with actual statistics, evidence of historical changes, and so forth. Most of Maryland was never far south enough to even be geographically southern to begin with.

It was also called a middle colony. Go figure.

Nothing of this kind of substance backs up the arguments I've seen, ON THIS SITE, on people from the north actually being southern. It's just born out of a misconception that only the south can be rural and un-snootified. What I have decided to call northern shame.

I cannot believe you have not seen this trend right here on city-data. I mean I really, really can't.

Either you have managed to miss hundreds of posts over the years or you're just picking a fight for no reason.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,441 posts, read 11,944,656 times
Reputation: 10547
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
You don't pay enough attention then. It's all over this very site! In fact, I had never considered it was possible until this place opened my eyes to how stupid people are.

I know it sounds ridiculous, and it is. That's my point. However, I am NOT making this crap up. Look around this. Very. Site. Go through the millions of what is southern or not threads. It ain't just Maryland we're talking about.

Come on, now, you don't have a be a jerk about it. (LOLOLOL? Really? Are you fourteen?)

It's been shown, also on this very site, why Maryland and Delaware are not truly southern states, over and over and over again. Users have backed it with actual statistics, evidence of historical changes, and so forth. Most of Maryland was never far south enough to even be geographically southern to begin with.

It was also called a middle colony. Go figure.

Nothing of this kind of substance backs up the arguments I've seen, ON THIS SITE, on people from the north actually being southern. It's just born out of a misconception that only the south can be rural and un-snootified. What I have decided to call northern shame.

I cannot believe you have not seen this trend right here on city-data. I mean I really, really can't.

Either you have managed to miss hundreds of posts over the years or you're just picking a fight for no reason.
In the case of Delaware, you do have somewhat of a point. Slavery there was a very marginal institution even at the time of the Civil War. But Maryland was absolutely considered part of the Upper South. The state had divided loyalties during the Civil War, and arguably didn't vote to join the confederacy only because of the presence of Federal Troops. After the war, it became a Jim Crow state dominated by the Democratic Party, only electing three Republican governors between 1868 and 1950. The rise of urban Baltimore made it a bit atypical for the Upper South, but it really wasn't until the explosion of DC suburbia that it was more commonly lumped into the North.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,743,366 times
Reputation: 5374
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
In the case of Delaware, you do have somewhat of a point. Slavery there was a very marginal institution even at the time of the Civil War. But Maryland was absolutely considered part of the Upper South. The state had divided loyalties during the Civil War, and arguably didn't vote to join the confederacy only because of the presence of Federal Troops. After the war, it became a Jim Crow state dominated by the Democratic Party, only electing three Republican governors between 1868 and 1950. The rise of urban Baltimore made it a bit atypical for the Upper South, but it really wasn't until the explosion of DC suburbia that it was more commonly lumped into the North.
I agree it was a torn state. It had those cultural traits. I'm not arguing that, I never did. Regardless, it's still not geographically southern, for the most part, and only was when Florida was Spanish and Georgia was a third its current size.

Maryland sits pretty dang far north no matter what part of history you're looking at. That's the element I argue was never truly southern.

I'd go further but I really didn't want to get involved in another Maryland contest. Dead horse bleeding.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:47 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,138 posts, read 9,917,638 times
Reputation: 6424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
It's not "bull" at all. DE, MD, and DC used to be considered the South but have all been ceded to the North over time; at the very least, a large percentage of folks in "traditional"/former Confederate states do not consider those places Southern. Again, you just did that yourself with DC and there's also the matter of peninsular FL to consider. On the other hand, I have NEVER seen this phenomenon you speak of regarding PA, OH, IN, and MI and they most certainly haven't been booted out of their native regions by other states in the Midwest and Northeast.

This is probably one of the weirdest perspective I've ever seen here on C-D and one that most certainly doesn't reflect reality. "Northern shame"?!?!?! LOLOLOL
Actually you have it the other way around regarding Delaware.

Delaware used to be part of the North that for some reason began to be considered southern after the American Revolution. At first, Delaware (New Sweden) became part of New Netherland, which became New York after the English conquest in 1664. The Duke of York actually set up the first counties in Delaware. Then he sold Delaware to Pennsylvania in the 1680s, which pretty much controlled Delaware for the next 100 years.

When Pennsylvania was negotiating the Mason-Dixon Line with Maryland, she was not just negotiating for herself, she was negotiating for Delaware as well.

So the point is, far from the South "ceding" Delaware, Delaware has returned to where she belonged in the first place, as a Mid-Atlantic state in the Northeast.

Now Maryland historically was southern but today is debatable. Virginia however is not. As far as I am concerned, Virginia is part of the South, no matter how many suburbs are built around DC.
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:08 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,138 posts, read 9,917,638 times
Reputation: 6424
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
I agree it was a torn state. It had those cultural traits. I'm not arguing that, I never did. Regardless, it's still not geographically southern, for the most part, and only was when Florida was Spanish and Georgia was a third its current size.

Maryland sits pretty dang far north no matter what part of history you're looking at. That's the element I argue was never truly southern.

I'd go further but I really didn't want to get involved in another Maryland contest. Dead horse bleeding.
Maryland was not considered Southern because of how far north or south she is. She was considered southern because (1) she was settled by settlers moving up the Chesapeake Bay from Virginia and (2) she was originally in the Southern English colonies group as opposed to the Northern English colonies group (New England).

Consider the situation in 1660 At this time the English colonies were divided into TWO GROUPS separated by foreign Dutch territory.

New England (English)
1. Plymouth Colony
2. Massachusetts (includes some control of New Hampshire and parts of Maine)
3. Rhode Island
4. Connecticut
5. New Haven Colony


New Netherland (Dutch) (to New York in 1664)
1. Future New York
2. Future New Jersey
3. Future Pennsylvania
4. Future Delaware


Southern Colonies (English)
1. Virginia
2. Maryland
3. Carolina (future North and South Carolina)


Situation in 1760

New England
1. Massachusetts (includes the "Old Colony" of Plymouth)(also includes the future Maine until 1820)
2. Rhode Island
3. Connecticut (includes New Haven)
4. New Hampshire

Middle Colonies (former New Netherland)
1. New York (includes the future Vermont)
2. New Jersey
3. Delaware (under the influence of Pennsylvania)
4. Pennsylvania

Southern Colonies
1. Virgin
2. Maryland
3. South Carolina
4. North Carolina

5. Georgia
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,743,366 times
Reputation: 5374
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Maryland was not considered Southern because of how far north or south she is. She was considered southern because (1) she was settled by settlers moving up the Chesapeake Bay from Virginia and (2) she was originally in the Southern English colonies group as opposed to the Northern English colonies group (New England).

Consider the situation in 1660 At this time the English colonies were divided into TWO GROUPS separated by foreign Dutch territory.

New England (English)
1. Plymouth Colony
2. Massachusetts (includes some control of New Hampshire and parts of Maine)
3. Rhode Island
4. Connecticut
5. New Haven Colony


New Netherland (Dutch) (to New York in 1664)
1. Future New York
2. Future New Jersey
3. Future Pennsylvania
4. Future Delaware


Southern Colonies (English)
1. Virginia
2. Maryland
3. Carolina (future North and South Carolina)


Situation in 1760

New England
1. Massachusetts (includes the "Old Colony" of Plymouth)(also includes the future Maine until 1820)
2. Rhode Island
3. Connecticut (includes New Haven)
4. New Hampshire

Middle Colonies (former New Netherland)
1. New York (includes the future Vermont)
2. New Jersey
3. Delaware (under the influence of Pennsylvania)
4. Pennsylvania

Southern Colonies
1. Virgin
2. Maryland
3. South Carolina
4. North Carolina

5. Georgia
I could swear I was taught in school that Maryland was considered a middle colony by 1760.

I am glad you brought up the oft forgotten New Netherlands. In that context, it is easy to see Maryland being a part of the southern English colonies.

However, we are neither New England nor New Netherlands anymore, we're the United States of America. The context has transformed entirely.
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Old 09-13-2018, 06:43 PM
 
29,946 posts, read 27,424,696 times
Reputation: 18529
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
You don't pay enough attention then. It's all over this very site! In fact, I had never considered it was possible until this place opened my eyes to how stupid people are.

I know it sounds ridiculous, and it is. That's my point. However, I am NOT making this crap up. Look around this. Very. Site. Go through the millions of what is southern or not threads. It ain't just Maryland we're talking about.

Come on, now, you don't have a be a jerk about it. (LOLOLOL? Really? Are you fourteen?)

It's been shown, also on this very site, why Maryland and Delaware are not truly southern states, over and over and over again. Users have backed it with actual statistics, evidence of historical changes, and so forth. Most of Maryland was never far south enough to even be geographically southern to begin with.

It was also called a middle colony. Go figure.

Nothing of this kind of substance backs up the arguments I've seen, ON THIS SITE, on people from the north actually being southern. It's just born out of a misconception that only the south can be rural and un-snootified. What I have decided to call northern shame.

I cannot believe you have not seen this trend right here on city-data. I mean I really, really can't.

Either you have managed to miss hundreds of posts over the years or you're just picking a fight for no reason.
I've been on this forum for a couple of years now and have participated in the majority of threads that deal with the South as a region in the General U.S./City vs City subforums. Aside from perhaps a few Southern transplants to the North, I have not seen this trend of "people from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and even MICHIGAN trying to claim they are southern" that you speak of. I literally have no clue what you're talking about.

That so-called trend was brought up in relation to the rural nature and perceived "Southernness" of South Jersey. I actually lived in South Jersey for a year and my work took me to several towns in the region: Pitman, Mullica Hill, Pedricktown, Vineland, Swedesboro, Woodstown, etc. I shopped and did business in other towns like Deptford, Glassboro, Salem, Atlantic City, etc. I had conversations with several natives in the region (there aren't many transplants at all) and never once did I encounter anybody claiming to be Southern, and there were certainly opportunities to do so as I often shared that I was a native SC'er and had only lived in the Carolinas and Georgia up to that point in my life. I also recall a conversation I had several years back with someone who told me he was from the Louisville area. When I asked if he considered himself Southern, his exact words were "Oh no, we don't claim the South"--which I thought was interesting and even a little puzzling. However, a little later in the conversation, he revealed that he was actually from the Indiana suburbs of Louisville and then his statement made sense. So whether you're talking about on this forum or in real life, I simply don't know what you're talking about. I haven't seen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Actually you have it the other way around regarding Delaware.

Delaware used to be part of the North that for some reason began to be considered southern after the American Revolution. At first, Delaware (New Sweden) became part of New Netherland, which became New York after the English conquest in 1664. The Duke of York actually set up the first counties in Delaware. Then he sold Delaware to Pennsylvania in the 1680s, which pretty much controlled Delaware for the next 100 years.

When Pennsylvania was negotiating the Mason-Dixon Line with Maryland, she was not just negotiating for herself, she was negotiating for Delaware as well.

So the point is, far from the South "ceding" Delaware, Delaware has returned to where she belonged in the first place, as a Mid-Atlantic state in the Northeast.

Now Maryland historically was southern but today is debatable. Virginia however is not. As far as I am concerned, Virginia is part of the South, no matter how many suburbs are built around DC.
Well I learned something today about Delaware. But my point still stands regarding Maryland and DC.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,743,366 times
Reputation: 5374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
So whether you're talking about on this forum or in real life, I simply don't know what you're talking about. I haven't seen it.
Fair enough, but that doesn't mean it isn't here. Your initial response as if I were some crazy bag lady walking and swinging cats around and muttering about the NBA watching me pee was really, really unnecessary. I don't just make things up to prove a point, leave that to the politics forum.
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