Obama To Stop Hate Speech Directed At Illegals (job, citizen, insurance)
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They paid their dues in this sense. They provided vast savings to the US citizenry. Neither food nor water nor medical is substantially better than at home. They paid their taxes and earned their rights to such things as schooling. Mexico is a first world country. Most per capita numbers are quite similar to eastern europe or Russia. Certainly not as good as the US or Canada but much better than third world. You reason as does the "ugly American".
Paid their dues??? I'd sure like to see some statistics showing the 'vast savings', do you think you can provide some? Food, water and medical may or may not be 'substantially better', that can be debated, but it is DEFINITELY 'substantially FREER'. As for the canard about paying taxes, how much tax do you think gets paid on unreported income, or near minimum-wage income? Want a hint? NOTHING!!! At $8K per child we're talking about BILLIONS of $$$ paid by who?? American taxpayers, that's who! Not some illegal alien working for cash under the table or claiming 'exempt' on a W-2. You really should think a little more critically, as it is you seem to be just short of totally delusional.
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You misstate the "here with children" discussion. The claim is that they are vastly ahead of a fresh legal immigrant. They have housing, friends, family. They are embedded in the infrastructure they have jobs and some are reasonably entreprenaurial. The privilege of being on site a long time has given them benefits compared to a legal immigrant. It may well overcome much if not all of the advantage of a superior education.
The children issue is of a different sort. These children are Americans and will remain so. If forced with family to Mexico they will retain the right to return and will almost certainly do so on reaching majority. You really want to send a couple of million children to rural Mexico and then take them back at 18? I can see the development of a whole new underclass that we don't need.
That 'underclass' you're talking about is ALREADY HERE, and absolutely KILLING the prospects of the poorest Americans to EVER find a way to work themselves up the ladder. $200 BILLION a year in depressed wages, taken DIRECTLY from our poorest citizens. You sound like someone who yearns for the good old days of chattel and slavery.
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The problem is not solvable at 12 million. It may not be solved at 500,000 either. Got a lot better shot though. and it may well be that we do the same thing we did last time. Do an amnesty and then ignore the problem. If we do that we will get the same outcome.
Sure it's solvable, even at the 30 million that are actually here. Strict enforcement of the existing law, along with common-sense reforms to remove the welfare magnet, would go a LONG way in driving them back across the border, and it won't cost us a DIME. It took 20 years for this many to get here, it might take 10 to make them leave. 1.3 million of them did just that this year. Stronger enforcement might raise that total to 3 million NEXT year.
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It may well turn out that the solution is to exhaust the supply. I hope not but that is where we are headed right now. Would it not make more sense to fix it rather than let it rip? I have suggested more than once that the most effective technique might well be to run a Marshall Plan into rural Mexico and make living there much more desirable. Probably the most effective thing we could do in terms of bang for the buck...
That's not a solution, it's a TOTAL CAPITULATION! No thank you!
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To rail about the 12 million may make a segment feel good...but it does not change the facts. We are not going to deport them. And if we don't do something else it will simple fester more.
As pointed out above, we don't have to deport them. All we have to do is make it easier for them to go home than it is for them to stay.
Paid their dues??? I'd sure like to see some statistics showing the 'vast savings', do you think you can provide some? Food, water and medical may or may not be 'substantially better', that can be debated, but it is DEFINITELY 'substantially FREER'. As for the canard about paying taxes, how much tax do you think gets paid on unreported income, or near minimum-wage income? Want a hint? NOTHING!!! At $8K per child we're talking about BILLIONS of $$$ paid by who?? American taxpayers, that's who! Not some illegal alien working for cash under the table or claiming 'exempt' on a W-2. You really should think a little more critically, as it is you seem to be just short of totally delusional.
That 'underclass' you're talking about is ALREADY HERE, and absolutely KILLING the prospects of the poorest Americans to EVER find a way to work themselves up the ladder. $200 BILLION a year in depressed wages, taken DIRECTLY from our poorest citizens. You sound like someone who yearns for the good old days of chattel and slavery.
Sure it's solvable, even at the 30 million that are actually here. Strict enforcement of the existing law, along with common-sense reforms to remove the welfare magnet, would go a LONG way in driving them back across the border, and it won't cost us a DIME. It took 20 years for this many to get here, it might take 10 to make them leave. 1.3 million of them did just that this year. Stronger enforcement might raise that total to 3 million NEXT year.
That's not a solution, it's a TOTAL CAPITULATION! No thank you!
As pointed out above, we don't have to deport them. All we have to do is make it easier for them to go home than it is for them to stay.
There is not much I can add. I think it is reasonable to say that a much higher % of Americans have access to safe drinking water and proper sewage disposal than the people of Mexico. Also, for any complex medical condition far too many of them head for the US and let the American taxpayer foot the bill (case in point: the illegal alien who ran up $2.2 million in medical bills for 3 liver transplants).
I agree the underclass is already here. If given amnesty, they can then begin bringing over their equally impoverished and poorly educated relatives, thereby expanding their underclass even more. A family that consists of parents who dropped out of school in the 9th grade and have 4 kids is ALWAYS going to need government assistance programs of some sort. If we make them legal, we are then stuck paying for them forever.
The gravy train has to come to a halt. The jobs and benefits that draw them here in the first place have to stop. Above all else, they need to understand that there is not going to be an amnesty, no matter how long they wait. That alone would cause a certain % to give up and go home. The other measures will take care of the rest. They did not get here overnight and it may take a while for them to leave. But in the final analysis, they must leave.
And failure to do something will solve nothing absolutely as well.
So do we try or just lay back and let it happen?
What we DO is dust off all those laws that were passed with the LAST amnesty and start vigorously enforcing them. We eliminate the job magnet by FORCING businesses to verify the status of their employees. We eliminate the welfare magnet by interpreting the 14th Amendment in the fashion it was written, and quit awarding citizenship (along with all those bennies) to the children of aliens. We eliminate the sanctuary cities by withholding ALL Federal $$$ from the cities that thumb their noses at the CURRENT laws.
There is not much I can add. I think it is reasonable to say that a much higher % of Americans have access to safe drinking water and proper sewage disposal than the people of Mexico. Also, for any complex medical condition far too many of them head for the US and let the American taxpayer foot the bill (case in point: the illegal alien who ran up $2.2 million in medical bills for 3 liver transplants).
I agree the underclass is already here. If given amnesty, they can then begin bringing over their equally impoverished and poorly educated relatives, thereby expanding their underclass even more. A family that consists of parents who dropped out of school in the 9th grade and have 4 kids is ALWAYS going to need government assistance programs of some sort. If we make them legal, we are then stuck paying for them forever.
No question the US has better water and sewer systems than Mexico. But the Mexican systems are in the same range as the US systems. For instance both water and sewage are fine In Puerto Vallarta and many other big cities.
If you get into the rurals and small towns they can be quite bad. Actually though get into the small US towns and cities and they can be awful too.
So yes we have a substantial advantage...but with lots of overlap.
Mexicans don't come to the US for medical care. It is quite available in Mexico and it would never occur to them. When in the US they of course use the US system. In fact US citizen don't come to the US for medical care unless it is some heavy procedure where they need to do so for health insurance reasons. Often your health coverage won't cover in Mexico. some times not even in an emergency.
Actually a family of four may do very well without any assistance. These people work hard and are good at making money. Few have any interest in welfare.
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The gravy train has to come to a halt. The jobs and benefits that draw them here in the first place have to stop. Above all else, they need to understand that there is not going to be an amnesty, no matter how long they wait. That alone would cause a certain % to give up and go home. The other measures will take care of the rest. They did not get here overnight and it may take a while for them to leave. But in the final analysis, they must leave.
Of course there is going to be an amnesty of one sort or another. The population has no intention of deporting them. It ain't gonna happen. So eventually we will have some version of an amnesty. Likely we will wait because of all the anti noise until the economy picks up and the influx is well underway. But we will have one.
There are no acceptable methods that prevent them staying. You can do a better job of forcing them off the official payrolls but all that does is screw the tax collector and the illegal. They just go off payroll.
And failure to do something will solve nothing absolutely as well.
So do we try or just lay back and let it happen?
Who said we are not going to do anything? Myself and at least one other person have advocated attrition through enforcement.
1. Enforce the laws already on the books
2. Cut off the jobs magnet. All employers must verify the citizenship of an employee. There must be penalties for employers that use illegal aliens. The kind of penalties that will make them wish they had not.
3. No more anchor babies. The 14th Amendment has long since served it's original purpose and has been prostituted to serve as cover for people wishing to take advantage of the hapless US taxpayer. Get rid of it.
4. Cut off the benefits and freebies.
Tell the Mexican kids who sneak across the border to go to US schools that they need to go home. We can no longer afford to provide them with a free education. If illegal alien children want to attend US schools, they must pay the out of district rate.
An illegal alien who shows up at an ER seeking care will be seen and have their condition stabilized, as required by law. They will then be returned to their home country, by air ambulance if necessary, for the remainder of their treatment. The home country will be sent a bill for the expenses.
5. Let them know there is not going to be another amnesty. It did not work in 1986, as a matter of fact it was a miserable failure, and there is no reason to think it will work in 2008. The only possible way they can gain US citizenship is to follow the procedure that is in place to come to the US legally.
What we DO is dust off all those laws that were passed with the LAST amnesty and start vigorously enforcing them. We eliminate the job magnet by FORCING businesses to verify the status of their employees. We eliminate the welfare magnet by interpreting the 14th Amendment in the fashion it was written, and quit awarding citizenship (along with all those bennies) to the children of aliens. We eliminate the sanctuary cities by withholding ALL Federal $$$ from the cities that thumb their noses at the CURRENT laws.
THAT'S what we DO...
Sure...you will get all that done around 2030 or so, if ever. And by then the entire demographic from Mexico will live here.
Sure you can force them off the payroll eventually. Half are already off it. So they now work off the payroll. We don't get any taxes and the illegal gets screwed by his employer. But you think that is progress?
The interpretation of the 14th is well set and is not going to change because you don't like it. And you are not about to get an amendment through.
You folk are baying at the moon. This is not going to go away because you want it to real bad. We are not going to chase all the illegals home with Sherriff Joe.
We need to regularize the status of those here and established and get to a problem that can be contained. And the longer you folk delay the solution the harder it is going to be.
No question the US has better water and sewer systems than Mexico. But the Mexican systems are in the same range as the US systems. For instance both water and sewage are fine In Puerto Vallarta and many other big cities.
If you get into the rurals and small towns they can be quite bad. Actually though get into the small US towns and cities and they can be awful too.
So yes we have a substantial advantage...but with lots of overlap.
Mexicans don't come to the US for medical care. It is quite available in Mexico and it would never occur to them. When in the US they of course use the US system. In fact US citizen don't come to the US for medical care unless it is some heavy procedure where they need to do so for health insurance reasons. Often your health coverage won't cover in Mexico. some times not even in an emergency.
Actually a family of four may do very well without any assistance. These people work hard and are good at making money. Few have any interest in welfare.
Of course there is going to be an amnesty of one sort or another. The population has no intention of deporting them. It ain't gonna happen. So eventually we will have some version of an amnesty. Likely we will wait because of all the anti noise until the economy picks up and the influx is well underway. But we will have one.
There are no acceptable methods that prevent them staying. You can do a better job of forcing them off the official payrolls but all that does is screw the tax collector and the illegal. They just go off payroll.
Now wait a minute, wait a minute.........
Is this a joke or do you actually believe this?
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Mexicans don't come to the US for medical care. It is quite available in Mexico and it would never occur to them.
And then we have this:
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When in the US they of course use the US system.
But of course!
They are not supposed to be in the US to use the US healthcare system! Who do you think pays for this?
Sure...you will get all that done around 2030 or so, if ever. And by then the entire demographic from Mexico will live here.
Sure you can force them off the payroll eventually. Half are already off it. So they now work off the payroll. We don't get any taxes and the illegal gets screwed by his employer. But you think that is progress?
The interpretation of the 14th is well set and is not going to change because you don't like it. And you are not about to get an amendment through.
You folk are baying at the moon. This is not going to go away because you want it to real bad. We are not going to chase all the illegals home with Sherriff Joe.
We need to regularize the status of those here and established and get to a problem that can be contained. And the longer you folk delay the solution the harder it is going to be.
No question the US has better water and sewer systems than Mexico. But the Mexican systems are in the same range as the US systems. For instance both water and sewage are fine In Puerto Vallarta and many other big cities.
If you get into the rurals and small towns they can be quite bad. Actually though get into the small US towns and cities and they can be awful too.
So yes we have a substantial advantage...but with lots of overlap.
Mexicans don't come to the US for medical care. It is quite available in Mexico and it would never occur to them. When in the US they of course use the US system. In fact US citizen don't come to the US for medical care unless it is some heavy procedure where they need to do so for health insurance reasons. Often your health coverage won't cover in Mexico. some times not even in an emergency.
Actually a family of four may do very well without any assistance. These people work hard and are good at making money. Few have any interest in welfare.
Of course there is going to be an amnesty of one sort or another. The population has no intention of deporting them. It ain't gonna happen. So eventually we will have some version of an amnesty. Likely we will wait because of all the anti noise until the economy picks up and the influx is well underway. But we will have one.
There are no acceptable methods that prevent them staying. You can do a better job of forcing them off the official payrolls but all that does is screw the tax collector and the illegal. They just go off payroll.
I like the way you totally ignore every point I made to blather on about an inevitable amnesty. Let's take a look at some of your fallacies, and I'll reference JUST the ones in THIS quoted post.
1. Mexicans don't come to the US for medical care. Would you care to tell that to the multiple dozens of hospitals that have closed due to the unpaid care given to illegal aliens. Or could you explain the $1 BILLION from Medicare/Medicaid that was given to those hospitals in a futile attempt to stave off their bankruptcies? Or maybe you could explain that to the health care workers who post on this forum about the abuse of the ER's by illegal aliens? Ever heard of EMTALA?
2. Few have any interest in welfare. Really? How does this assertion stand up to the FACT that the children of illegal aliens are draining California's welfare system of several billion dollars a year?
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If you don’t think our Congress is taking Americans for a ride, think again. According to Dr. Madeleine Cosman, "At least 300,000 to 350,000 anchor babies annually become citizens in California." In 1994, 74,987 anchor babies in maternity units cost taxpayers $215 million in Stockton, California. In 2003, 70 percent of the 2,300 babies born in San Joaquin General maternity ward were from illegal aliens. That number has exploded today with over three million illegal aliens residing in California.
The French economist Frederic Bastiat said, "The unseen is more expensive than the seen." In Stockton, California, the Silverio Family was featured in the Wall Street Journal in 2003. They were fruit pickers who arrived illegally from Oxtotilan, Mexico in 1997. The wife, Felipa had three kids, but popped an anchor baby named Flor. The child was premature and spent three months in a neonatal incubator at a cost to the San Joaquin Hospital of over $300,000.00. They conceived another, Christian. The second baby made them eligible for $1,000 per month welfare. Because Flor is disabled, she receives $600.00 monthly for asthma. Although the illegal aliens made $18,000.00 annually picking fruit, they collected $12,000.00 of your tax dollars for their anchor babies. One night the father, Cristobal crashed his van. He had no license or insurance. Taxpayers paid for all hospital bills. That’s why 77 hospitals in border states were going bankrupt in 2003, but Senator John McCain wrote a rider into the Medicaid Bill for $1.4 billion of your tax dollars. It passed. Not to finish the spending spree on these anchor babies, the children attend California schools at a cost of $7,000.00 per year over and above what their parents pay in taxes. The cost for all five of their children for one school year exceeds $35,000.00 times 18 years for a grand taxpayer total of $630,000.00. This is only one family. No wonder California is $38 billion in debt.
3. Of course there is going to be an amnesty of one sort or another. Why? It's not necessary and it will do no good for the citizens of this nation. Thankfully the citizens are finally rubbing the sleep from their eyes and seeing the great damage rampant illegal immigration is doing to them and their fellow citizens.
4. There are no acceptable methods that prevent them staying. Of course there are, the strict enforcement of CURRENT laws, the adoption of E-Verify and the reversal of 100 years of 14th Amendment abuse are ALL acceptable methods. As a bonus, THEY WILL WORK!!
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