Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Islam is essentially represented by its core, the Quran and supported by its various expositions and ethos. IS is following exactly the same Quran that all Muslims are adhering to.
The difference is IS is more compliant certain dictates of that same Quran.
Therefore IS it nothing else but Islam.
Ever since Islam emerged, there have been different groups of more compliant Muslims committing terrible evils as inspired by SOME evil laden elements in the Quran. They are direct manifestations of Islam. IS is merely one such group. IF IS is defeated there will be other groups waiting in line to continue the ravage on humanity.
Those same groups will still be there even if Islam vanished. You do not see any reduction of violence when the percentage of Muslims declines. Usually there is an increase such as in the US.
Although the number of Muslims in the USA have increased in the past 200 years, the percentage has decreased dramatically.
Social scientists estimate that 15 to 30 percent, or "as many as 600,000 to 1.2 million," slaves in antebellum America were Muslims. Forty-six percent of the slaves in the antebellum South were kidnapped from Africa's western regions, which boasted "significant numbers of Muslims."
These enslaved Muslims strove to meet the demands of their faith, most notably the Ramadan fast, prayers and community meals, in the face of comprehensive slave codes that linked religious activity to insubordination and rebellion. Marking Ramadan as a "new American tradition" not only overlooks the holy month observed by enslaved Muslims many years ago but also perpetuates their erasure from Muslim-American history. Ramadan: A Centuries-Old American Tradition - The Root
That means Between 2.6 to 5.1% of all Americans were Muslims in 1800 (That does not include the unknown number of Muslims that were not slaves
Percentage wise the Muslim population in the US is now at least 66% less than what is was in 1800.
Today the percentage of Muslims in the US is about the lowest It has been since 1800, but we seem to have reached a very high violent crime rate.
Originally Posted by Continuum
Islam is essentially represented by its core,
the Quran and supported by its various expositions and ethos. IS is following exactly the same Quran that all Muslims are adhering to.
The difference is IS is more compliant certain dictates of that same
Quran.
Therefore IS it nothing else but Islam.
Ever since Islam emerged, there have been different groups of more compliant Muslims
committing terrible evils as inspired by SOME evil laden elements in the Quran.
They are direct manifestations of Islam. IS is merely one such group. IF IS is
defeated there will be other groups waiting in line to continue the ravage on
humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI
Those same groups will still be there even if Islam vanished. You do not see any reduction of violence when the percentage of Muslims declines. Usually there is an increase such as in the US.
As expected, you don't want to understand [not necessary agree] my point.
Note this modified quote of Steven Weinberg; [mine]
1. With or without it [Religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
You understand and agree with the above?
Following,
2. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion [critically Islam].
The above imply, religion [especially] Islam make a distinct difference to the problem of evil.
Violence [the most critical] is merely one example, I am referring to all the evil things that SOME Muslims commit unto non-Muslims which are inspired directly by the Quran and its associated texts and 'stern' unfriendly ethos. There are other human rights issues that SOME Muslims imposed on non-Muslims in various degrees.
The existence of Islam adds a different complexity and amplification to the problem of evil within humanity that no other mainstream religions does.
Yes, as with (1) above, if Islam vanish, we will still have evil people doing evil things, but the mix and complexity will be less sophisticated different. This is because 'religion' engages a believer at a very deep level of the human psyche. This is why PM Cameron is having a problem in getting to the nub of religious-inspired evils and violence.
Without Islam, there will not a religious catalyst to inspire these evil people [a natural percentile re Bell Curve] to commit violence and they will not have opportunity to justify their violence under the skirt of their religion as sanction by their God in the holy texts.
Without Islam, there will not be an orgy of evils all over the world whenever a slight altercation, misperception, or drawing of merely cartoons in one part it made full blown elsewhere at internet speed.
Without Islam, most of the evils will be localized. Though all drug cartels have common interest within them, no drug gang in Thailand will take revenge of some drug gang members are killed by police in Mexico.
The fact with Islam [laden with evil elements] is, any threat and 'mischief' against Islam from any where over the world is instinctively and spontaneously felt by many as a personal threat against their own existential security. This is why the very sensitive Muslims [even SOME ] will lash out to feel secure and the impact therefrom become a worldwide religious 'catastrophe' evil.
As expected, you don't want to understand [not necessary agree] my point.
Note this modified quote of Steven Weinberg; [mine]
1. With or without it [Religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
You understand and agree with the above?
Following,
2. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion [critically Islam].
The above imply, religion [especially] Islam make a distinct difference to the problem of evil.
Violence [the most critical] is merely one example, I am referring to all the evil things that SOME Muslims commit unto non-Muslims which are inspired directly by the Quran and its associated texts and 'stern' unfriendly ethos. There are other human rights issues that SOME Muslims imposed on non-Muslims in various degrees.
The existence of Islam adds a different complexity and amplification to the problem of evil within humanity that no other mainstream religions does.
Yes, as with (1) above, if Islam vanish, we will still have evil people doing evil things, but the mix and complexity will be less sophisticated different. This is because 'religion' engages a believer at a very deep level of the human psyche. This is why PM Cameron is having a problem in getting to the nub of religious-inspired evils and violence.
Without Islam, there will not a religious catalyst to inspire these evil people [a natural percentile re Bell Curve] to commit violence and they will not have opportunity to justify their violence under the skirt of their religion as sanction by their God in the holy texts.
Without Islam, there will not be an orgy of evils all over the world whenever a slight altercation, misperception, or drawing of merely cartoons in one part it made full blown elsewhere at internet speed.
Without Islam, most of the evils will be localized. Though all drug cartels have common interest within them, no drug gang in Thailand will take revenge of some drug gang members are killed by police in Mexico.
The fact with Islam [laden with evil elements] is, any threat and 'mischief' against Islam from any where over the world is instinctively and spontaneously felt by many as a personal threat against their own existential security. This is why the very sensitive Muslims [even SOME ] will lash out to feel secure and the impact therefrom become a worldwide religious 'catastrophe' evil.
to a very large extent I agree with what you said.
Yes, Muslims do take any disagreement against Islam very personal. simply because we each are the only person we know is Muslim.
No matter how pious or practicing a person appears to be as a Muslim, I do not KNOW with absolute certainty if they are Muslim. I only know they say they are. I have no way to know if they ever said the shahadah and if I do know they said it I do not know if the said it with sincerity or even if they believe it is true.
Very often a Muslim will feel he is the only Muslim, when a person attacks Islam it is a personal attacking because we are the only person we know is a Muslim.
Our practice of Islam is also very personal as very much is done individually with no other person being aware of what we do.
Neither I nor anyone else can prove they perform the 5 pillars of life. If my live depended on it I can not prove I believe the Shahadah is true, I can not prove I do the 5 daily prayers, I can not prove I pay zakat to the poor, I can not prove I would go on Hajj if I were physically able. I can not prove I fast during Ramadan
As I can not prove I am Muslim, I do take all attacks as personal. However I do my best to avoid striking back in kind and tend to view attacks as being from ignorance and not from Malice.
Last edited by Woodrow LI; 08-14-2015 at 11:17 PM..
The general principle is that one has to believe Allah before it is possible to submit to Allah. Both the believing and submitting is about and to Allah. Submitting without believing Allah is only to someone else than Allah.
No. You only understood it so. Who were they submitting to if they did not believe Allah?
It does not say believe 'proper' but just 'believe'. Just 'believe' is not 'believe improper' but 'believe proper'. One cannot strengthen his faith without believing in the first place. I think you are mistaking 'piety' and the level of piety with 'believe'. Piety (rightesness in religious sense rather than belief) develops with believing and practice. Practice reflects one's piety/goodness or evilness..
Not clear to you. You are misquoting Allah's words. Allah did not say to Muhammad to say to them, "they have only submitted " but had said to Muhammad to say to them to "say, they submit" rather than believe. Who were they submitting to, if they did not even believe Allah? That's what you are ignoring. The verse does not say that they were submitting to Allah.
In that case, you will also have to admit that just as they were ignorant of 'believing proper' and were not believing Allah, they were ignorant of 'submitting proper' and were not submitting to Alalh. They were even told at the end of the verse ss o what 'proper submission' is as compared to their 'submit'.
You can't have double standard when it comes to believing and submitting.
Your idea of submitting without believing is hypocrisy. Allah is not saying that they submitted to Allah. You are imagining it so. For surety
they believed not Allah and thus submit was not to Allah..
Exactly my point! 5 pillars or 20 pillars include proper believing as well as proper submitting to Allah. The first and the most fundamental pillar is believing. Submitting follows
Believing. Who would you submit to if you don't even believe Allah?
You like to learn from analogies, don't you? Well, here are a few:
You won't submit to Allah when you do not even believe Allah.
You will have to die first if you want to go to paradise.
You can't die unless you were born first.
You will never live in Submitualllaland because you don't even believe that such a country exists.
But you can't understand that submission in 2:208 is proper 'submit' to Allah and it is AFTER 'believing'. In 49:14, there isn't even loose 'believing' so no proper 'submit' to Allah without 'believe' first.
Allah does not explain in 49:14 as to what their 'submit' actually is but this is eplained in 2:208 as to the order of believing and submitting. 2:208 is explanation of 49:14 particularly of submission "if you obey Allah and His messenger". Obeying Allah and His messenger IS "believing and submitting" proper. No other way, my friend Continuum!
The Qur'an is expressed by Allah as"light" from Him 64:8, 4:174, 5:15, 7:157. You can read and try to understand the parable regarding His light in 24:35.
There would have been no Muslims left if they had managed to put out this light (9:32, 61:8). That would have been extinction of Muslims. Muslims exist because the Qur'an exists. Any attack on the Qur'an is in reality attack on Muslims.
It's called natural justice. The Qur'an is clear that if they live in peace with us, we must live in peace with them. There is no outright killing instructions with no limit or rules of engagement.
Natural means to do with nature. Nature to me is creation of God. The book is the book of guidance from God.
No. You misunderstand. Neither 49:14 is contradiction of 2:208 nor the 2:208 is contradiction of 49:14. You need to understand both together. The proper way to go about is in 2:208 and what the wandering Arabs were doing is only described in 49:14. The 2:208 is the correct way to do, and 49:14 is the wrong way to do as it does not include believing first. Only a "believer" can submit proper.
Note the postings in this thread to your point above.
Here is another analogy to explain why "submit" must precede "believe-proper" as in 49:14.
Take the example of the marriage contract of a husband and wife and 'love'.
This is an example of marriage based on love not arranged marriage.
As I had mentioned the term 'love' is a very loose term.
1. Before the man and the woman signed the marriage certificate they must have fallen in love with another.
2. However this "initial love" is perhaps infatuation or just romantic love as with any courting couple.
3. Following the initial love both man and woman submitted to each other with promises by signing the marriage contract.
4. After the submission [signing of the contract] they will continue to develop their "love" for each other.
5. However one will note the 'love' a couple develop after marriage is a different and deeper kind of love from the infatuation or romantic love in the pre-marriage period.
6. This "deeper love" must be continuously cultivated and both must work hard at it to keep it alive and growing.
The above analogy of 'initial love' and the later 'deeper love' is the same with what is going on with a person becoming a Muslim, i.e. the "initial believe" lead on to submit and the "deeper believe" [as in 49:14] is develop later as a Muslim comply and obey more of Allah commands.
Initial believe is what makes one a "believer" ("momin") and then submitiing makes him "muslim" ("submitter"). Don't you still get it?
Who did not get it?
It is you who did not get it because you have only read the Quran 6-7 times and in additional you are reading it with a the maximum degree of subjectivity and emotional biasness.
I have read the Quran more than 50 times on an objective basis, thus my answers are more objective.
So far you have not caught me with any [except one or two oversights] serious misunderstanding of the Quran. What we are arguing are merely difference of views, my objective and yours subjective/bias/wrong views.
Note the number of times 'believe' and 'submit' appear in the Quran,
'believe' = 1141 times
'submit' = 6 times
'submission' = 6 times
As I said the term 'believe' is a very loose term.
In the 1141 times the term believe was used, I noted from my reading of the Quran {>50 times} [I have not done a detail analysis yet] the term believe have been used in a range of sense from 'believe-widest sense' to 'believe-proper'.
I am fully aware the term 'believe' was intended to be related to believing-proper and not in the looser sense.
The 1141 times believe appear in the Quran indicate its significance in its relation to what is a Muslim.
Therefore it is more critical for a Muslim to understand the various senses of the term 'believe.'
The degree of believing-proper as mentioned so times in the Quran is related to the degree of rewards one will be accorded in Paradise.
'Submit' only appear ONLY 6 times and this indicate its necessity but insignificance to "what is a Muslim".
Note the understanding of the above points is based on reading the Quran more than 50 times. I did not get to such a meaning when I read the Quran only 10 times.
Note the number of times 'believe' and 'submit' appear in the Quran,
'believe' = 1141 times
'submit' = 6 times
'submission' = 6 times
"Unbelievers" appears many more times than "Muslims" in the Qur'an. Even "Moses" appears many more times than "Muhammad" in the Qur'an. What the hell are you thinking of here?
27:81 Nor can you be a guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to bear (anyone) except those who believe in our ayat, so they submit.
Only those submit who first believe.
You are never going to see any unbeliever/disbeliever submitting. Only a believer can be a Muslim. Believing is prerequisite to submitting (being a Muslim).
"Unbelievers" appears many more times than "Muslims" in the Qur'an. Even "Moses" appears many more times than "Muhammad" in the Qur'an. What the hell are you thinking of here?
What the hell are you thinking of?
Problem is you are not thinking properly because of your fear of the illusionary Islamic Hell.
The number of times of the theological elements do reflect the intentions of the holy texts.
Within the 6,236 verses of the Quran, more than 3000++ verses contain elements of contempt [hatred] against the non-Muslims disbelievers.
The Quran should have focused more on the positive development of the Muslims rather than the negative contempt toward those who are not Muslim. This is why the Quran as a whole manifest a general ethos of contempt for non-Muslims which influenced SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims. There is definitely something wrong with such an approach to religion.
That Moses appear 153 times in the Quran reflect that he was an important prophet than others for some reason. The reason could be, Muhammad wanted to represent himself as similar to Moses.
While the Quran only mentioned the word 'Muhammad' a few times, the implication is Muhammad is referred many times, i.e. 277 times in parenthesis [] in the Pickthall translation.
Where the verses has the word 'say' it imply 'say o Muhammad', e.g.
46:8. Or say they: He hath invented it? Say (O Muhammad): If I have invented it, still ye [infidels] have no power to support me against Allah. He is best aware of what ye [infidels] say among yourselves concerning it. He sufficeth for a witness between me and you And He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
In another perspective, all the 6,236 verses of the Quran implied a relation to Muhammad because it was him who was chosen by Allah to recite all these verses.
Therefore in this case you are ignorant of the literal implication of how the number of times an element is used in a text is very significant to the central message of the text, the author and how it will affect the readers.
Note Google search, blogs, advertisers take advantage of such a feature.
Also note how the technique of brainwashing also use the repetitive method, the more time, the more effective is the brainwashing.
Quote:
27:81 Nor can you be a guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to bear (anyone) except those who believe in our ayat, so they submit.
Only those submit who first believe.
You are never going to see any unbeliever/disbeliever submitting. Only a believer can be a Muslim. Believing is prerequisite to submitting (being a Muslim).
You will continue to insist your view in this case due to psychological and emotional motives and not because your view is literally objective.
Note 'submit' appear only 6 times in the Quran compare to the 1131 times for 'believe'.
In the context of the Quran and having read it more than 50 times it is obvious 'submit-proper' must precede 'believe-proper'. Like it or not, that is Allah's implied point as in the Quran as represented in 49:14.
What the hell are you thinking of?
Problem is you are not thinking properly because of your fear of the illusionary Islamic Hell.
You misunderstand again!
When I said, "what the hell", I wasn't using Islamic hell here but the "hell" used by so many unislamic people, particularly in English speaking countries.
Quote:
The number of times of the theological elements do reflect the intentions of the holy texts.
No. An ounce of gold is more valuable than hundreds of ounces of iron.
Quote:
Within the 6,236 verses of the Quran, more than 3000++ verses contain elements of contempt [hatred] against the non-Muslims disbelievers.
All of those particular unbelievers had done evil first. There is no contempt against those unbelievers who had done nothing against the believers.
Quote:
The Quran should have focused more on the positive development of the Muslims rather than the negative contempt toward those who are not Muslim.
The contempt is only against those who did something evil, not against all non-muslims. Not mentioning them is letting them off scotch free. You would love that, won't you?
Quote:
This is why the Quran as a whole manifest a general ethos of contempt for non-Muslims which unce influenced SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims. There is definitely something wrong with such an approach to religion.
The fact that the Qur'an approach does not influence negatively a vast majority of Muslims, you have no leg to stand on when yu concentrate on only a minority.
Quote:
That Moses appear 153 times in the Quran reflect that he was an important prophet than others for some reason. The reason could be, Muhammad wanted to represent himself as similar to Moses.
Using your usual logic, Moses was more important figure than Muhammad by Muhammad.
Quote:
While the Quran only mentioned the word 'Muhammad' a few times, the implication is Muhammad is referred many times, i.e. 277 times in parenthesis [] in the Pickthall translation.
Where the verses has the word 'say' it imply 'say o Muhammad', e.g.
"Muslim" is mentioned in the verses you quote (in perenthesis) so many times that I have even lost the count. Does that mean that Muslim is more important to you?
Quote:
46:8. Or say they: He hath invented it? Say (O Muhammad): If I have invented it, still ye [infidels] have no power to support me against Allah. He is best aware of what ye [infidels] say among yourselves concerning it. He sufficeth for a witness between me and you And He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
In another perspective, all the 6,236 verses of the Quran implied a relation to Muhammad because it was him who was chosen by Allah to recite all these verses.
Therefore in this case you are ignorant of the literal implication of how the number of times an element is used in a text is very significant to the central message of the text, the author and how it will affect the readers.
Note Google search, blogs, advertisers take advantage of such a feature.
You will never learn the Qur'an from google searches. Try learning it from a Muslim.
Quote:
Also note how the technique of brainwashing also use the repetitive method, the more time, the more effective is the brainwashing.
Actually that's how unbelieving politicians have brainwashed the unbelieving masses by repeating ISLAM in "ISLAMism", "ISLAMists" and "ISLAMic terrorists". Now they are so radicalized that they fear of anything to do with Islam.
Quote:
Note 'submit' appear only 6 times in the Quran compare to the 1131 times for 'believe'.
I can count 'submit' 6 times more than you can. You need to read the Qur'an more times to find the rest.
Quote:
In the context of the Quran and having read it more than 50 times it is obvious 'submit-proper' must precede 'believe-proper'. Like it or not, that is Allah's implied point as in the Quran as represented in 49:14.
You imply, not Allah. The problem with you is that you do not like to understand who the wandering Arabs were submitting to without 'believe' never having even entered their hearts.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
] will lash out to feel secure and the impact therefrom become a worldwide religious 'catastrophe' evil.
