U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-15-2016, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. An ounce of gold is more valuable than hundreds of ounces of iron.
This saying is not in the context of our discussion.
Allah as all knowing is not that stupid to compare gold and iron on this point.
Our context involve elements of comparable significance.


Quote:
All of those particular unbelievers had done evil first. There is no contempt against those unbelievers who had done nothing against the believers.

The contempt is only against those who did something evil, not against all non-muslims. Not mentioning them is letting them off scotch free. You would love that, won't you?
I have answered the above in another post, so I will not waste time on this.

Quote:
The fact that the Qur'an approach does not influence negatively a vast majority of Muslims, you have no leg to stand on when you concentrate on only a minority.
What counts is the terrible consequences by the critical minority.
Do you understand Pareto 80/20 principle in terms of focusing on the critical minority rather than the majority.
Asbestos do not cause cancer to the majority but only a minority, yet asbestos is banned despite its cheapness and usefulness.

That the Quran influenced and inspired the minority 20% of the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence like the statistics [27,985] below must be sufficient to warrant serious attention to the Quran and Islam.



The above stats relate to incidents with fatalities. There are tons of other sorts of evils and violence [rapes, injuries, injustices, cruelty, torture, oppressions, threats, terrors, etc.] committed by SOME evil prone Muslims around the world.

Quote:
Using your usual logic, Moses was more important figure than Muhammad by Muhammad.
What logic? I have argued Muhammad appeared more times by implications than Moses.
Any way I did not imply Moses is more important than Muhammad. Both are critical elements within the Quran.

Quote:
"Muslim" is mentioned in the verses you quote (in perenthesis) so many times that I have even lost the count. Does that mean that Muslim is more important to you?
The whole 6,236 verses are addressed to Muslims.
However 'Muslims' are specifically mentioned in the Quran in less that 1800 verses.
Non-Muslims are mentioned in more than 3100 verses.
The Quran seemingly pay more attention to non-Muslim that to the spiritual improvement of Muslims.

The general strategy, approach and focus in the Quran is to condemn the non-Muslims as not-good to make the Muslim look and feel good.
This is the typical strategy, 'blowing out the candle of others to make one's own shine."
This is often adopted by those with very low self-esteem as they do not has anything of real worth to show.
The moral and ethical strategy should be concentrating to do good and improve oneself instead of by condemning others.

Quote:
You will never learn the Qur'an from google searches. Try learning it from a Muslim.
It is human nature and human psychology a theistic religious believer must be emotionally bias by default. Otherwise the faith will not work for this if the believe try to reason and rationalize his faith. That is why 'faith' = beliefs without proofs nor reason.

Therefore it is would be ridiculous for me to learn the truth of reality and the religion from a Muslim believer.
The most I would learn from a Muslim are the meaning of the terms and the verses in Arabic [as I had done from Woodrow].

Quote:
Actually that's how unbelieving politicians have brainwashed the unbelieving masses by repeating ISLAM in "ISLAMism", "ISLAMists" and "ISLAMic terrorists". Now they are so radicalized that they fear of anything to do with Islam.
The above is not true.
Obama, Cameron, Bush, Merkel and may other non-Muslim politicians has always insist Islam in totality is a Religion of Peace and jihadists has nothing to do with Islam. They are wrong and has misled their people.
Islam is in part has good and evil elements.


Quote:
I can count 'submit' 6 times more than you can. You need to read the Qur'an more times to find the rest.
I was referring to the Pickthall edition and I did a word search via the computer. I don't believe the computer is wrong at all.

Quote:
You imply, not Allah. The problem with you is that you do not like to understand who the wandering Arabs were submitting to without 'believe' never having even entered their hearts.
In 49:14. Allah did not mention specifically who the wandering Arabs were submitting to.
The term "submit" is used in the general sense, i.e. submit to Allah.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-15-2016 at 01:28 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-15-2016, 02:17 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Allah as all knowing is not that stupid to compare gold and iron on this point.
Our context involve elements of comparable significance.
2:76

Quote:
Asbestos do not cause cancer to the majority but only a minority, yet asbestos is banned despite its cheapness and usefulness.
It may not cause cancer to all but it will cause all to have asthma to all who breath in the dust from it.

Quote:
That the Quran influenced and inspired the minority 20% of the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence like the statistics [27,985] below must be sufficient to warrant serious attention to the Quran and Islam.
The Qur'an can't be blamed for the actions of minority who do not even understand the Qur'an. The attention must be given to educate them.

Quote:
The above stats relate to incidents with fatalities. There are tons of other sorts of evils and violence [rapes, injuries, injustices, cruelty, torture, oppressions, threats, terrors, etc.] committed by SOME evil prone Muslims around the world.
None of that is commanded in the Qur'an. Even any injury is for the injury caused.

Quote:
The whole 6,236 verses are addressed to Muslims.
Almost all to "believers".

Quote:
However 'Muslims' are specifically mentioned in the Quran in less that 1800 verses.
Non-Muslims are mentioned in more than 3100 verses.
The Quran seemingly pay more attention to non-Muslim that to the spiritual improvement of Muslims.
It is the infidels that were in need of spiritual improvement.

Quote:
The general strategy, approach and focus in the Quran is to condemn the non-Muslims as not-good to make the Muslim look and feel good.
No. It is for infidels to learn spiritually.

Quote:
This is the typical strategy, 'blowing out the candle of others to make one's own shine."
This is often adopted by those with very low self-esteem as they do not has anything of real worth to show.
The moral and ethical strategy should be concentrating to do good and improve oneself instead of by condemning others.
Then they should not have tried to condemn Muslims by waging wars on them, should they?

Quote:
Therefore it is would be ridiculous for me to learn the truth of reality and the religion from a Muslim believer.
The most I would learn from a Muslim are the meaning of the terms and the verses in Arabic [as I had done from Woodrow].
Science teaches you truth and reality of this world but the Qur'an teaches you truth of ultimate reality

Quote:
The above is not true.
Obama, Cameron, Bush, Merkel and may other non-Muslim politicians has always insist Islam in totality is a Religion of Peace and jihadists has nothing to do with Islam. They are wrong and has misled their people.
Islam is in part has good and evil elements.
Do you agree with Obama, Bush and Cemeron that Islam is religion of peace? If you do then you cannot make the Qur'an responsible for evil actions of a minority.


Quote:
In 49:14. Allah did not mention specifically who the wandering Arabs were submitting to.
The term "submit" is used in the general sense, i.e. submit to Allah.
Wrong! One can't submit to Allah if 'believe' about Allah hasn't even entered his heart. It simply means they were doing submitting to Muhammad as a favor to him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2016, 03:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It may not cause cancer to all but it will cause all to have asthma to all who breath in the dust from it.
The potential of asbestos to cause asthma can be mitigated by covering it with various materials.
The critical reason why asbestos is banned is because of its malignant potential to cause cancer.

The point here is in the presence of potential evil of great magnitude it would be safer to control the stimuli rather than educating the stubborn users.

Quote:
The Qur'an can't be blamed for the actions of minority who do not even understand the Qur'an. The attention must be given to educate them.
This is where you are ignorant of problem solving.
In any serious problems that are related to humans there are two major elements;

1. The external stimuli
2. The humans involved

which are represented in my hypothesis re Islamic-inspired evils and violence, i.e.

1. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] are has great tendency to commit evil
2. The Quran [Islam] has significant amounts of evil laden elements.

The above 1 & 2 combine to generate terrible evils and violence around the world.

The point of efficient problem solving is one must addressed both variables, i.e. point 1 and 2.
It is inefficient to blame one [evil prone] and not the other [the Quran].

You are again ignorant of human nature.
Where there is human problem of evil, it is impossible to educate all especially those who are naturally born with a tendency for evil.
Note we are talking of a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims. Education may work with 10 millions and the other 80% of moderates but there is no way society can educate to cure those who are hardcore in their tendency for evil.

Theoretically it would be more efficient to get rid of the Quran and we can be 100% certain there will be no more Islam [Quran] inspired evil. This may not be practical at present due to various factors.
But Muslims must first acknowledge there are evil laden elements in their Islam [Quran] that are triggering SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
This is a fact all Muslims cannot deny.


Quote:
None of that is commanded in the Qur'an. Even any injury is for the injury caused.
Your above is a blatant denial.
Many Muslims involved in the stats above claimed they were committing the evils and violence based on the commands in the Quran.

Here is one example amongst the many;
Bouyeri had told the court he had acted out of religious conviction.
Clutching a copy of the Koran, he said that "the law compels me to chop off the head of anyone who insults Allah and the prophet".
BBC NEWS | Europe | Van Gogh killer jailed for life
Quote:
It is the infidels that were in need of spiritual improvement.
No. It is for infidels to learn spiritually.
This is where you are arrogant based on ignorance.
From my research of spirituality in the world, Islam's spirituality is very kindergarten and partly brutal.
The non-Muslims especially of the Eastern religions and others are involved in very high PhD level spirituality.
It is the majority of Muslims who are not mostly religious who need effective spiritual improvements.


Quote:
Science teaches you truth and reality of this world but the Qur'an teaches you truth of ultimate reality.
Relatively in comparison to other spirituality, Islam and Quran merely touch on the kindergarten level of spirituality.

Quote:
Do you agree with Obama, Bush and Cameron that Islam is religion of peace? If you do then you cannot make the Qur'an responsible for evil actions of a minority.
Read my point again. I do not agree with them. I stated these leaders to be politically correct [not realistically true] has misled their people with falsehoods.

Quote:
Wrong! One can't submit to Allah if 'believe' about Allah hasn't even entered his heart. It simply means they were doing submitting to Muhammad as a favor to him.
There is no indication of submission to Muhammad at all in the Quran.
Submission is always related to Allah and thus apply to 49:14.

The duty of Muhammad was a conveyor, warner, & reminder to call on people to submit to Allah and thus be a Muslim.
It would have been a great sin if Muhammad has influenced the wandering Arabs to submit to him.
It is not difficult for Muhammad to inform the wandering Arabs they have to submit to Allah and not to him personally.

You are so desperate that you are willing to twist all the doctrines and claim the wandering Arabs were submitting to Muhammad. This is not logical at all in the whole context of the Quran, Allah and Muhammad's responsibility to deliver the message.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2016, 04:07 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The potential of asbestos to cause asthma can be mitigated by covering it with various materials.
The critical reason why asbestos is banned is because of its malignant potential to cause cancer.
I have worked with asbestos roofing sheets and it has not caused me any problem. I had taken care when drilling into the asbestos sheets. Therefore, it is misuse of asbestos and not taking care when dealing with it that causes one to get into the problems.

Quote:
The point here is in the presence of potential evil of great magnitude it would be safer to control the stimuli rather than educating the stubborn users.
Then the real problem is the stubbornness of people.

Quote:
This is where you are ignorant of problem solving.
In any serious problems that are related to humans there are two major elements;

1. The external stimuli
2. The humans involved
If the external stimuli does not affect the majority of humans then thereis something wrong with the minority that they need to rectify. There is always some kind of evil in the world. Getting rid of the world is not intelligent way of problem solving.

Quote:
You are again ignorant of human nature.
You are ignorant of inherent evIl potential in humans. You must teach them to control it rather than try to take it out of them.

Quote:
Where there is human problem of evil, it is impossible to educate all especially those who are naturally born with a tendency for evil.
All have potential to learn. Meccans were subjecting Muslims to their evil actions. Muhammad managed to teach them not to do evil. There is peace in Mecca ever since then.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2016, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I have worked with asbestos roofing sheets and it has not caused me any problem. I had taken care when drilling into the asbestos sheets. Therefore, it is misuse of asbestos and not taking care when dealing with it that causes one to get into the problems.

Then the real problem is the stubbornness of people.
That is my point with reference to your statement that asbestos caused asthma. There is no need to ban asbestos for reason of asthma as this can be prevented and avoided quite easily. No doubt there will be stubborn and ignorant people who are exposed to asbestos and they get asthma but asthma can be cured and not a critical disease.

Asbestos is banned in most countries because of its potential to cause cancer.
If it is the misuse of asbestos why do governments banned asbestos. If you said it is due to misuse, why don't they educate the users as you have suggested.

The fact here is not every one can be fully educated on the use of asbestos and because cancer is so critical, it would be most efficient to ban it totally where necessary. In such a case, there is no possibility of anyone getting cancer from misuse or accidental exposure to asbestos.
People may get cancer from other sources and these sources has to be dealt with.

The same principle applies to all serious poisons and malignant elements which are banned immediately. It would be stupid not to take such drastic steps in preference to educating the minority who misuse these poisons and malignant elements.

The above can be applied to Islam [in part] and its contribution to evil and violence.
Say, if Islam is banned [in theory only] then there is no possibility of any person committing evils and violence in the name of Islam.

Quote:
If the external stimuli does not affect the majority of humans then there is something wrong with the minority that they need to rectify. There is always some kind of evil in the world. Getting rid of the world is not intelligent way of problem solving.
Theoretically and logically yes, the minority need to be changed for the better.
But the fact is it is not practical to make improvements to the minority especially when it involved the DNA, neurons and the complex brain.

Note I gave you an example of the getting rid, censoring, banning, warning, educating of the violence elements in movies, computer games, other sources so that they are not exposed to the vulnerable. Now why don't governments educate those with a tendency to evil.

The fact is when we are not in a position to improve the control of evil impulses of the minority evil prone, then the second most effective solution is to control the external stimuli that will trigger the impulses.

Note I did not say 'get rid of the world' which is your very bad thinking.
I stated we need to control and modulate the specific external stimuli in each particular case.
As with our discussion the external stimuli in the case of religion-inspired evils and violence, the external stimuli is the evil laden elements in the many verses of the Quran.

Quote:
You are ignorant of inherent evil potential in humans. You must teach them to control it rather than try to take it out of them.
You are talking nonsense here.
I was the one who educated and bring to your attention ALL humans are potentially beastly and 20% have high tendency to commit evil.
Note I raised a specific thread on this topic.
ALL Human Beings are Potentially Beastly and Evil

Quote:
All have potential to learn. Meccans were subjecting Muslims to their evil actions. Muhammad managed to teach them not to do evil. There is peace in Mecca ever since then.
Yes all have the potential to learn but not all have the tendency to learn. That is why we have a range from very stupid to very smart people at the present.

It the Nazi and Japanese has won WWW II and subdue all enemies to their ideologies, then there would have been 'peace' in the world.
That was what happened with Muhammad and the Meccans then. Muhammad used barbaric force to get rid of every other cultures and religions and forced his mono-culture and mono-religion on the Meccans and got rid of the Jews and Christians. This is so obvious with what is happening in Mecca and Saudi at present where people are heavily oppressed by force and threats.
What you have with Muhammad was a qualified inhuman peace as proven by the complains of abuse of human rights by the Saudi at present and not pure genuine human peace.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-15-2016 at 10:14 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-16-2016, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
NO. NO. NO. You couldn't be more wrong.
Allah was absolutely clear in 49:14 that the wandering Arabs did not believe at all as believing hadn't even entered their hearts yet. You cannot argue with Allah on this one.

At least it had to enter their heart, loose or not so loose.

No matter how you look at it or do more mental gymnastics with your "believe" thing, it is not going to enter your heart. Even in forced believing, there is someone in their hearts that is making them believe by force.

Correct!
Believing is prereguisite to submitting in case of a Muslim.

Wrong! Obviously you are not aware of Articles of Faith.

I understand your point in full. You have been talking about what we call "Eeman" and strength of Eeman, and not 'believe'.

Irn other words, faith and belief may sound the same thing in English but are not exactly the same. Fo example, I find a wallet with $4,000 in it and the owner's address in it too. According to my belief, I must return the property to the owner. But if my Eeman is weak, I may decide to get away with it by thinking of keeping it. I had weak faith in the later situation despite believing that God is watching and I should return the property to the owners.

Nothing will happen without 'believe'.

Not 'believe' but 'Eeman'. If there is even slightest 'believe' on the very first day, and there must be, then 'believe' has entered that person's heart even on the very first day. His Eeman would get strengthened with "ruh" ("spirt") from Allah through His commands after 'believe'. There is ruh in the Qur'an that you won't understand at all unless you believe. In other words, if no believe, there old be no Eeman, no faith, no strengthening by ruh, no hope, no light, no guide, and no submission. It all begins with 'believe' and depends on 'believe'.

No. It sounds rather gibberish to me. There is no Muslim on earth who does not 'believe'.
Note we are discussing 49:14 therefore you need to focus on the verse specifically.
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Read 49:14 again and with a fine-toothed comb this time.

Within Islam, a person who has submitted is a Muslim.
When Allah conveyed in 49:14 the wandering Arabs had only 'submitted' it is implied they are already Muslims.
As you stated [& I agree] 'there is no Muslims who has not 'believe'.

But Allah stated they have not believe. Literally if they have not believe they are not Muslims.
In the other statement Allah stated they have submitted, therefore they are Muslims.
So it seem Allah has stated a contradiction.

Since Allah is all powerful and all knowing, Allah could not have committed a contradiction.
To understand Allah did not make any contradiction, we have to understand there are two senses to 'believe' i.e.

1. Loose sense of believe
2. Specific and qualified sense of believe-proper.

What Allah had expressed was the believe in 49:14 was the specific type of believe-proper.
This is the fact of what Allah has intended in 49:14.

You on the other hand are using your own fallible thinking as a slave to twist your master's [Allah's] words and actual intention.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-16-2016, 02:30 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note we are discussing 49:14 therefore you need to focus on the verse specifically.
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Read 49:14 again and with a fine-toothed comb this time.

Within Islam, a person who has submitted is a Muslim.
But you are not using the fine comb here.

Who were these wandering Arabs submiting to,, without 'believe'?

In Islam, you submit to Allah. We cannot submit to anyone else, not even to Muhammad. And you cannot submit to Allah you do not even 'believe'. And Allah has made it clear in the verse that the wandering Arabs did not believe at all as believe hadn't even entered their heart. So who were they submitting to?

Quote:
When Allah conveyed in 49:14 the wandering Arabs had only 'submitted' it is implied they are already Muslims.
Allah did not convey thattheywere submitting but Allah conveyed that they should not say that they believe but all they can SAY is that they submit. They, therefore, must have been submitting to someone else than Allah they did not even believe.

Quote:
As you stated [& I agree] 'there is no Muslims who has not 'believe'.
Allah did not say they are Muslims without believing. Allah said all they can "SAY" is that they submit but not believe.

Quote:
But Allah stated they have not believe. Literally if they have not believe they are not Muslims.
In the other statement Allah stated they have submitted, therefore they are Muslims.
So it seem Allah has stated a contradiction.
You are wrongly assuming that Allah said they were Muslims in one part of the verse and not Muslim in the other part of the verse. This is where you are unable to understand the Qur'an. Allah never said they were Muslims or non-Muslims but that they should not say that they believe. If, as Allah says, they did not believe, who were they submitting to? You must think logically here. They were of course submitting but to whom? You can submit to anyone but in Islam you must submit to Allah. Believing Allah, therefore, is prerequisite to submitting to Allah in Islam.

Quote:
Since Allah is all powerful and all knowing, Allah could not have committed a contradiction.
To understand Allah did not make any contradiction, we have to understand there are two senses to 'believe' i.e.

1. Loose sense of believe
2. Specific and qualified sense of believe-proper.
No. That is not understanding Allah but understanding what you would like to think. The proper way to understand would be that they were not submitting to Allah they did not believe
but to someone else.

Quote:
What Allah had expressed was the believe in 49:14 was the specific type of believe-proper.
This is the fact of what Allah has intended in 49:14.
The specific believe is believe in Allah, and Allah denied that they had believed.

Quote:
You on the other hand are using your own fallible thinking as a slave to twist your master's [Allah's] words and actual intention.
Try not to act like my Master here; you are not even a good student of learning about just one verse; this verse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-16-2016, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is my point with reference to your statement that asbestos caused asthma. There is no need to ban asbestos for reason of asthma as this can be prevented and avoided quite easily. No doubt there will be stubborn and ignorant people who are exposed to asbestos and they get asthma but asthma can be cured and not a critical disease.

Asbestos is banned in most countries because of its potential to cause cancer.
If it is the misuse of asbestos why do governments banned asbestos. If you said it is due to misuse, why don't they educate the users as you have suggested.

The fact here is not every one can be fully educated on the use of asbestos and because cancer is so critical, it would be most efficient to ban it totally where necessary. In such a case, there is no possibility of anyone getting cancer from misuse or accidental exposure to asbestos.
People may get cancer from other sources and these sources has to be dealt with.

The same principle applies to all serious poisons and malignant elements which are banned immediately. It would be stupid not to take such drastic steps in preference to educating the minority who misuse these poisons and malignant elements.

The above can be applied to Islam [in part] and its contribution to evil and violence.
Say, if Islam is banned [in theory only] then there is no possibility of any person committing evils and violence in the name of Islam.

Theoretically and logically yes, the minority need to be changed for the better.
But the fact is it is not practical to make improvements to the minority especially when it involved the DNA, neurons and the complex brain.

Note I gave you an example of the getting rid, censoring, banning, warning, educating of the violence elements in movies, computer games, other sources so that they are not exposed to the vulnerable. Now why don't governments educate those with a tendency to evil.

The fact is when we are not in a position to improve the control of evil impulses of the minority evil prone, then the second most effective solution is to control the external stimuli that will trigger the impulses.

Note I did not say 'get rid of the world' which is your very bad thinking.
I stated we need to control and modulate the specific external stimuli in each particular case.
As with our discussion the external stimuli in the case of religion-inspired evils and violence, the external stimuli is the evil laden elements in the many verses of the Quran.

You are talking nonsense here.
I was the one who educated and bring to your attention ALL humans are potentially beastly and 20% have high tendency to commit evil.
Note I raised a specific thread on this topic.
ALL Human Beings are Potentially Beastly and Evil

Yes all have the potential to learn but not all have the tendency to learn. That is why we have a range from very stupid to very smart people at the present.

It the Nazi and Japanese has won WWW II and subdue all enemies to their ideologies, then there would have been 'peace' in the world.
That was what happened with Muhammad and the Meccans then. Muhammad used barbaric force to get rid of every other cultures and religions and forced his mono-culture and mono-religion on the Meccans and got rid of the Jews and Christians. This is so obvious with what is happening in Mecca and Saudi at present where people are heavily oppressed by force and threats.
What you have with Muhammad was a qualified inhuman peace as proven by the complains of abuse of human rights by the Saudi at present and not pure genuine human peace.
Understandable and quite logical:

Quote:
The fact is when we are not in a position to improve the control of evil impulses of the minority evil prone, then the second most effective solution is to control the external stimuli that will trigger the impulses.
Unfortunately it opens the door for someone's personal opinion as to what the stimuli are.

Using that logic the news media should not report incidents of violence as it may encourage violence in others. After a hoffific crime there often are 'copy cat crimes" committed.

In the same light notifications of the execution of criminals should not be published.as it may give some people the idea it is permissible to kill people that have wronged them.


While I can understand how a non-Muslim can view the Qur'an as containing violence, there is no excuse for any Muslim to find any ayyat to be promoting violence. If a Muslim things the Qur'an promotes violence, they do not understand the Qur'an.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-16-2016, 04:51 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
Reputation: 289
Very good points!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-16-2016, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
But you are not using the fine comb here.

Who were these wandering Arabs submiting to,, without 'believe'?

In Islam, you submit to Allah. We cannot submit to anyone else, not even to Muhammad. And you cannot submit to Allah you do not even 'believe'. And Allah has made it clear in the verse that the wandering Arabs did not believe at all as believe hadn't even entered their heart. So who were they submitting to?

Allah did not convey that they were submitting but Allah conveyed that they should not say that they believe but all they can SAY is that they submit. They, therefore, must have been submitting to someone else than Allah they did not even believe.
You are indeed desperate in twisting Allah's words.
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Allah implied they submitted but have not yet "believe-proper".
Submitted implied 'submit to Allah'.
If the wandering Arabs has submitted to someone else then they would be "kuffar" ['infidels'] and Allah would have condemned them there and then.
Allah did not condemn the wandering Arabs except to correct their semantics.
Therefore "submit" in 49:14 would imply 'submitting' to Allah which is the basic and fundamental process of being a Muslim.

I did not say the wandering did not "believe" before they submit to Allah.
They may have exercised some degree of believe mentally, but such a 'believe' is in the looser and wider sense.
The 'believe not' in 49:14 as implied by Allah refer to 'believe' in the specific sense.


Quote:
Allah did not say they are Muslims without believing. Allah said all they can "SAY" is that they submit but not believe.
Allah insist they submitted by not YET achieve the state of 'believe' in the specific and proper sense.

You are totally blinded and in denial to understand there are a wide range of meanings to the term 'believe' just as the loose terms like, 'love' 'religion' 'spiritual and the likes.

Quote:
You are wrongly assuming that Allah said they were Muslims in one part of the verse and not Muslim in the other part of the verse. This is where you are unable to understand the Qur'an. Allah never said they were Muslims or non-Muslims but that they should not say that they believe. If, as Allah says, they did not believe, who were they submitting to? You must think logically here. They were of course submitting but to whom? You can submit to anyone but in Islam you must submit to Allah. Believing Allah, therefore, is prerequisite to submitting to Allah in Islam.
I did not say they are Muslims in one part and not in the other part of the verse.

In 49:14, the wandering Arabs were Muslims throughout the verse, i.e. they are Muslims when they have submitted as Allah said so, and as Muslims they need to be better and truer Muslims in practicing 'believing' of the higher order or degree.

Thus 49:14 convey the following points;
1. Muslims believe [loose sense] to submit,
2. Thereafter Muslims must believe [specific and higher sense] to enable faith to enter their hearts.

Note the difference in intensity of 'believe' between point 1 and 2.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top