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Old 02-03-2018, 10:40 PM
 
26,783 posts, read 22,537,314 times
Reputation: 10037

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Quote:
Originally Posted by other99 View Post
Well Eire was part of the UK for over 300 years too. In addition Eire also became a 100% English speaking region. Also London and many English cities have for such a long time been flooded with people from the Eire. Yes there are Russian speakers in Ukraine, but it does not necessary mean they are Russian. I am aware that Kiev and Oddessa are majority Russian speaking. Of course there are those that consider themselves Russian, and its a heated topic. Also there are German speakers in Switzerland but it does not mean they are German
Oh but England was not born from Ireland, however Russian first capital was Kiev.

Quote:
NATO is more likely to split up these days than Ukraine join it. However it might some day be part of the EU. I am aware there is a lot of issues that has problems with Ukraine such as poverty and curruption. However Russia does have troops in Eastern Ukraine. But each side trying to force a solution that will benefit them is clearly not working.
That's why I've said many times before, that Putin should have taken East Ukraine along with Crimea and would be done with it. What he is hoping for now ( trying to achieve) - I have no idea.

Quote:
Also the Mothers of Russia, is exposing Russian human rights violations of its military,
and fighting for the rights of its veterans Êîìèòåò ñîëäàòñêèõ ìàòåðåé Ðîññèè - îôèöèàëüíûé ñàéò
Right, but this is not very relevant to Ukraine.

Quote:
Well it is possible for Russia to get better relations with Ukraine, and Russia neighbours.
I think that train is long gone, with all the NATO advancements.
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Old 02-04-2018, 12:15 AM
 
4,432 posts, read 6,982,756 times
Reputation: 2261
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Oh but England was not born from Ireland, however Russian first capital was Kiev.



That's why I've said many times before, that Putin should have taken East Ukraine along with Crimea and would be done with it. What he is hoping for now ( trying to achieve) - I have no idea.



Right, but this is not very relevant to Ukraine.



I think that train is long gone, with all the NATO advancements.
Kosovo was the old capital of Serbia, but it no longer, and Serbia is the capital. Sure Kiev used to be the capital of Russia, but its long gone and been Moscow.

The link I did enclose was relevant to Ukraine as after all Russian troops are in the Ukraine, and are even being killed in Eastern Ukraine.

Well the situation in East Ukraine and Crimea is very complicated. Yet in much of the rest of Europe ethnic minorities are accommodated, such as the Ethnic German speakers in Italy, and it is an autonomous region. Also the people of Northern Ireland can get both British and Irish passports, and things seem a lot more calmer in Northern Ireland than several decades ago.

Well Nato is a joke with Turkey still in it as often Turkey acts in the interests that is counter to NATO. Hungary is also part of NATO but there are conflicting interests with Hungary and other NATO members. Also the US at times acts in the interest which offends large amount of NATO members. France a lot acts in its own interests, and France has traditionally been outspoken against certain aspects of US foreign policies.

Actually the EU is more opening up to Ukraine and it becoming easier for the people of Ukraine to travel in the EU. An majority of people in Ukraine want to join the EU.

Last edited by other99; 02-04-2018 at 12:32 AM..
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Old 02-04-2018, 08:54 AM
 
12,022 posts, read 11,568,432 times
Reputation: 11136
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
So the nation is not sovereign if we tell them to fire a corrupt prosecutor before we lend them money? You see no connection between loaning people money and having conditions about making it hard to steal the money? It was their choice, fire the guy or don't take the money.
He gave them $335 million in military aid in exchange for getting rid of the prosecutor. There are two instances of loss of sovereignty, foreign control over the judicial system and foreign funding of the military.

I don't see the big thing here. A country subjugated by neo-colonialism is going to be corrupted by foreign influence. It is more of the same.
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Old 02-04-2018, 11:35 AM
 
26,783 posts, read 22,537,314 times
Reputation: 10037
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99 View Post
Kosovo was the old capital of Serbia, but it no longer, and Serbia is the capital. Sure Kiev used to be the capital of Russia, but its long gone and been Moscow.
Do you think Serbs have forgotten all about it? That their land has been given to Muslims?

Quote:
The link I did enclose was relevant to Ukraine as after all Russian troops are in the Ukraine, and are even being killed in Eastern Ukraine.
It's not much relevant, because it's a rather a "generic" subject. This "Soldiers Mothers" committee exists independently from Ukrainian issues.

Quote:
Well the situation in East Ukraine and Crimea is very complicated. Yet in much of the rest of Europe ethnic minorities are accommodated, such as the Ethnic German speakers in Italy, and it is an autonomous region. Also the people of Northern Ireland can get both British and Irish passports, and things seem a lot more calmer in Northern Ireland than several decades ago.
It's not about the "accommodation" within the EU. It's about absence of desire of these people to be in European Union to begin with. Why do you think that EVERYONE wants to find oneself in the position of some other Eastern European countries in EU? What makes you think so?

Quote:
Well Nato is a joke with Turkey still in it as often Turkey acts in the interests that is counter to NATO. Hungary is also part of NATO but there are conflicting interests with Hungary and other NATO members. Also the US at times acts in the interest which offends large amount of NATO members. France a lot acts in its own interests, and France has traditionally been outspoken against certain aspects of US foreign policies.
I totally understand that the US ARE NOT always act in European interests. So the question remains - what the US are doing in Ukraine? I already explained Russia's reasons, but you still didn't explain to me why America is there.

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Actually the EU is more opening up to Ukraine and it becoming easier for the people of Ukraine to travel in the EU.
They can barely cover their electric bills now ( the majority of them,) but they can travel to Europe now. I see the trade-off.

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An majority of people in Ukraine want to join the EU.
The "majority" doesn't mean ALL. And that's what the conflict in the East is all about.
Did anyone ask them whether they wanted a change of government and "joining the EU" under the Nationalists? I think not.
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Old 02-04-2018, 03:52 PM
 
4,432 posts, read 6,982,756 times
Reputation: 2261
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Do you think Serbs have forgotten all about it? That their land has been given to Muslims?



It's not much relevant, because it's a rather a "generic" subject. This "Soldiers Mothers" committee exists independently from Ukrainian issues.



It's not about the "accommodation" within the EU. It's about absence of desire of these people to be in European Union to begin with. Why do you think that EVERYONE wants to find oneself in the position of some other Eastern European countries in EU? What makes you think so?



I totally understand that the US ARE NOT always act in European interests. So the question remains - what the US are doing in Ukraine? I already explained Russia's reasons, but you still didn't explain to me why America is there.



They can barely cover their electric bills now ( the majority of them,) but they can travel to Europe now. I see the trade-off.



The "majority" doesn't mean ALL. And that's what the conflict in the East is all about.
Did anyone ask them whether they wanted a change of government and "joining the EU" under the Nationalists? I think not.
Well Kosovo is an Albanian speaking majority area and been that way for a long time. Kosovo actually was part of an ex Yugoslavian state. It then had its own parliament and government, just like Macedonia, Croatia and Bosnia.

Yes Ukrainian government wishes to be part of NATO, and it will not help the process. That why negotiations on all sides need to get ASAP before this happens, and work out a solution. (But I not holding my breath) I am aware that even within the Ukraine there there are many people that have relatives back in Russia. Also Russia has many Ukrainians as well.

With the Crimea, it the native land of the Crimea Tatars and they have traditionally mistrusted the Russians there.After all they were exiled during Stalin and not allowed to move back there until 1989. The Crimea Tatars were a majority of the population until the end of the 19th century. Turkey has been the most vocal on their causes and finances Tatar groups. Even if Russia states that Crimea is forever part of Russia, there are issues with the Tatars that will linger. Not just with Ukrainians.

With the Russian troops that die in Ukraine, there are voices within Russia calling out for a lot more recognition and they can be buried in unmarked graves. Even conflicts such as Syria with the Russian military dead, there is a lot of censorship:

A few weeks ago Svetlana, a 24-year-old woman from the Krasnodar region contacted Conflict Intelligence Team, she wanted to know how her fiancé, 30-year-old Sergei, had died in Syria.

“These soldiers should be treated with respect, remembered––but they die and are put in some anonymous grave.”
— Ruslan Leviyev, Conflict Intelligence Team
https://www.thedailybeast.com/a-russ...aine-and-syria

.

Last edited by other99; 02-04-2018 at 04:02 PM..
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Old 02-04-2018, 04:17 PM
 
5,428 posts, read 3,495,021 times
Reputation: 5031
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Oh but England was not born from Ireland, however Russian first capital was Kiev.
A better example would be Israel. Jerusalem was it's capital before the Roman occupation, yet very few countries recognize that city as Israel's capital nowadays.

Quote:
That's why I've said many times before, that Putin should have taken East Ukraine along with Crimea and would be done with it. What he is hoping for now ( trying to achieve) - I have no idea.
Putin's goal is to play around with nationalism to get as many people behind him as he can. What better way to do it then by showing himself as a strongman. He wants to be remembered as the next Stalin rather than Yeltsin or Gorbachev.

That's why I always thought that Medvedev was a stronger candidate. He's a lot more level headed than Putin.


Quote:
I think that train is long gone, with all the NATO advancements.
If there's one thing I've learned in this world is that history means jacks***. People are very selective with what they care and things get forgotten or brushed aside over extended periods of time. That's why I feel that history should only ever be used as an educational tool and not a picture to determine policy.
Countries don't operate the same way people do as there are no friendships in politics, it's all about interests and those can change at any time.
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Russia
5,786 posts, read 4,231,086 times
Reputation: 1742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
That's why I always thought that Medvedev was a stronger candidate. He's a lot more level headed than Putin.
This shows that you do not understand Russian politics well.
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Russia
2,216 posts, read 1,021,420 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
This shows that you do not understand Russian politics well.
I totally agree with this statement.Understanding is no.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:23 AM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,855,314 times
Reputation: 6690
Quote:
Originally Posted by lchoro View Post
He gave them $335 million in military aid in exchange for getting rid of the prosecutor. There are two instances of loss of sovereignty, foreign control over the judicial system and foreign funding of the military.

I don't see the big thing here. A country subjugated by neo-colonialism is going to be corrupted by foreign influence. It is more of the same.
No he did not. Congress gives aid. The only thing Biden could do is withhold it. I also don't see how giving aid worth 5% of a country's military budget is the same as having sovereign control over it.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:25 AM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,855,314 times
Reputation: 6690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
Or split the country into East and West Ukraine. The Wests capital can be Lvov, in the Eastern part Kiev. Use the Dnepr river as the border. There's nothing wrong with that, it's been done before in other places. The only problem I can see in West Ukraine will be a vassel state to Europe just like it has always been.
Ukraine doesn't want to split apart. You or Putin's opinion on the matter are irrelevant.
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