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Which one? Let's see, because there are few of them here....
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How people who got maybe 2-3% of the vote are going to tell Ze what to do when he has his own majority?
The more time passes, the more it becomes clear, that the "new government" has a lot of people from the old government. These are downright the same faces, or people connected to the old government And practically none of the criminals from the old government was prosecuted, ( strting from Poroshenko,) as Ze has promised.
So there are a lot of questions from the public "what's going on." People voted for him in order to get rid of the criminals that were running the country during the last five years.
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The people in the South East who voted for Ze think Russia is their threat,
SOME do, but many don't.
I don't think you can even get the poll numbers, since people are simply often afraid to speak up.
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so how is it they should change their minds to think their true threat is nationalists?
Nationalists are a threat, because South-Easterners in their eyes are Ukrainians of the second sort, who "can't be trusted enough."
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It sounds like you are just making up that nationalists threaten the people in the south east... threaten them with what?
With violence.
The kind you saw in Odessa, the kind you see on the streets, where "the activists" are watching the "order," ( destroying monuments when they are pleased, threatening local authorities with hanged effigies- just an example,) and police steps back.
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You are making an unfounded claim about Ukrainians in the South East and not backing it up with any arguments in favor of your claim. What makes you think they believe Ukrainian nationalists are a bigger threat than the neighbor who supports armed insurrection?
And who would participate in the "armed insurrection," if not the South-Easterners themselves?
(Don't forget that Russia only SUPPORTS the insurrection, not downright brings the troops in and takes over.)
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Because some politician said so or? Citing Russian news or Scrat doesn't count.
I haven't heard Russian news talking about the South-East at all, except for DNR/LNR.
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How do you explain South Eastern Ukrainians fighting against Russian soldiers in 2014?
How many, do you have the figures?
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They did it for what reason other than the obvious one?
Again - I am asking you about the numbers.
It's obvious that SOME people in the South-East are hostile to Russia, period. These people don't perceive Nationalists as a threat.
But there is a difference between downright "Russian takeover" and close cultural/economic ties with Russia.
South-Easterners that perceive things this way are considered to be "politically incorrect" by the Nationalists and are constantly threatened with violence.
Well, you're wrong. They fear Russian aggression as they can see very clearly what it brought to the Donbas.
Oh, this silly argument concocted by the Nationalists is easy to dismiss.
Because everyone can see what "Russian aggression" brought to Crimea. A big improvement in the life of that place.
What's going on with Donbass is precisely the opposite; it's shortage of the "Russian aggression" ( as in case with Crimea,) but desire to use it as a bargaining chip.
The more time passes, the more it becomes clear, that the "new government" has a lot of people from the old government. These are downright the same faces, or people connected to the old government And practically none of the criminals from the old government was prosecuted, ( strting from Poroshenko,) as Ze has promised.
So there are a lot of questions from the public "what's going on." People voted for him in order to get rid of the criminals that were running the country during the last five years.
Sort of agree, but its too early to say on this.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Nationalists are a threat, because South-Easterners in their eyes are Ukrainians of the second sort, who "can't be trusted enough."
This is based on pre-2014 attitudes. After sharing battlefields together, these 2 formerly sometimes hostile towards each other groups are closer than ever. I'm speaking from very personal experience. I still cannot believe it sometimes when I hear them talk about it (I mean this from both sides).
The nationalists do consider the people in the "DPR" as enemies though, but these are quite distinguished from the rest of the South East of Ukraine. This depends on how you define nationalists though
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Originally Posted by erasure
The kind you saw in Odessa, the kind you see on the streets, where "the activists" are watching the "order," ( destroying monuments when they are pleased, threatening local authorities with hanged effigies- just an example,) and police steps back.
And who would participate in the "armed insurrection," if not the South-Easterners themselves?
(Don't forget that Russia only SUPPORTS the insurrection, not downright brings the troops in and takes over.)
The violence of 2014 is old news. The only nationalists in south east Ukraine are locals having an occasional flag waving event.
I'm sorry, but Russians themselves are also participating in the conflict. It isn't just Russian ammo going to DPR Ukrainians (even though that is the majority of what's happening). Its a blurry line anyway. The casualties and prisoners captured during the conflict speak to this.
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Originally Posted by erasure
How many, do you have the figures?
Again - I am asking you about the numbers.
The casualties once again show that south east Ukrainians violently resisted the "insurrection" just as much as anyone from the west/central of the country. This does depend on how you define South-East...More from Donetsk died on the DPR side. Dnipro and Kharkiv, nope.
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Originally Posted by erasure
But there is a difference between downright "Russian takeover" and close cultural/economic ties with Russia.
Yes, there is a difference between those two. The other difference is while the cultural ties are stronger and they are still strong, the economic ties aren't attractive anymore (sorry!). Economic ties to Russia mean no reforms are needed to keep oligarchs from stealing. This does vary between cities and factories within them depending on their industries. Suppliers of Russian military equipment parts are the hardest hit. But that is over, no going back on that.
Oh, this silly argument concocted by the Nationalists is easy to dismiss.
Then according to you most South-Easterners are nationalists. Including every single one I know, which is amazing since they all voted for Ze and some even visit Crimea!
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Originally Posted by erasure
Because everyone can see what "Russian aggression" brought to Crimea. A big improvement in the life of that place.
What's going on with Donbass is precisely the opposite; it's shortage of the "Russian aggression" ( as in case with Crimea,) but desire to use it as a bargaining chip.
Crimea is what the DPR people wanted? Poor things, how naive...
Crimea was the poorest least developed region of Ukraine. Sure its improved, but is life better there than in Western Ukraine now? You would have a hard time convincing them that. Probably for some people, but not for others. It is very isolated now for example. There has been a lot of extra funds allocated to the place, but will it continue?
In any case, that can't be repeated all over because Russians need the money for their own development, not just for annexed areas.
You still haven't answer the question. You are making an unfounded claim about Ukrainians in the South East and not backing it up with any arguments in favor of your claim. What makes you think they believe Ukrainian nationalists are a bigger threat than the neighbor who supports armed insurrection? Because some politician said so or? Citing Russian news or Scrat doesn't count.
How do you explain South Eastern Ukrainians fighting against Russian soldiers in 2014? They did it for what reason other than the obvious one?
There were very few SE Ukrainians in those militia groups that were first there. They were mostly village idiots, street trash, gopniki and other offal of Ukrainian society that washed up on the shores of the Maidan. they were thrown together and planted wherever when it became apparent that regular Ukrainian forces were not interested in oppressing their countrymen. At first Ukrainian soldiers were turning over their weapons and equipment to the people instead of killing them.
There were very few Ukrainians of any stripe looking to join in if you want to compare numbers. Currently in the 40+ battalions which were rolled over into the National Guard under the Ministry Of Internal Security (Minilove?) are capable of fielding 20 to 25 thousand armed men.
A very small percentage of these brigades as a whole are in fact from the SE and UP TO 50% are not from Ukraine at all. They're paid mercs, sadists looking for opportunites that conflicts present and the usual adrenaline junkies and those wiht no alternatives.
They couldn't fight their way out of wet paper bag either no matter how many Javelins the little monkies get their hands on.
Then according to you most South-Easterners are nationalists. Including every single one I know, which is amazing since they all voted for Ze and some even visit Crimea!
Crimea is what the DPR people wanted? Poor things, how naive...
Crimea was the poorest least developed region of Ukraine. Sure its improved, but is life better there than in Western Ukraine now? You would have a hard time convincing them that. Probably for some people, but not for others. It is very isolated now for example. There has been a lot of extra funds allocated to the place, but will it continue?
In any case, that can't be repeated all over because Russians need the money for their own development, not just for annexed areas.
What Russias has added to Crimea in infrastructure will ensure prosperity in Crimea for a long time to come. Shipyards, the tourist industry, the ports. People from all over Europe come there to visit and Crimeans are opening up BNBs all over the place, tour companies are being created, catering companies and just about anything you can imagine. It's not changing soon unless Ukrainian politcians start shooting missiles at it.
In addition to my previous post about Ukrainian armed forces. The National Guard Battalions are the primary standing army of Ukraine. 7 to 9 battalions are kept at the front with the DNR manning the lines and as a tactical reserve just behind the lines. These units are rotated. The rest are scattered throughout the country in garrisons, it's said 7 are in and around Kiev. They're there to "maintain order" if required and capable of mobilizing in as little as 48 hours.
These "battalions" are financed by the Ukrainian government and some of them oligarchs. In these battalions are special action squads on the ready at all times. They're death squads. If anybody dares to challenge to status quo there's going to be hell to pay. People are going to disappear and if necessary shot down in the streets.
I know where this was used before. Iraq. Who set up the Iraqi governments system? The US.
Don't try to tell me the US governement, the CIA and god knows who else is not all over the Ukraine. Don't try to tell me Ukrainians want this either.
In addition to the other falsehoods you are spewing on here about Ukraine, the biggest mistake is conflating the national guard with the army. They are totally separate because the national guard are run by the internal ministry. The internal ministry is not the general staff of the armed forces of Ukraine (who maintain the front line). The national guard replaced the internal troops, but many of them are the same guys in new uniforms.
You are also confused who the national guard is made up of which does not include the volunteer battalions. The volunteer battalions were all demobilized 3 to 4 years ago, with the exception of Azov (mostly guys from Donetsk region) reforming into a regiment. The Donbas battalion, led and formed by men from Crimea and the Donbas region are currently in reserve status.
They are demonized by Russian propaganda since they are the guys who were supposed to be fighting against Ukraine and not for them (being from the south east and all)...especially the guys from Crimea.
Reality is more important than conspiracy theories.
This is based on pre-2014 attitudes. After sharing battlefields together, these 2 formerly sometimes hostile towards each other groups are closer than ever. I'm speaking from very personal experience. I still cannot believe it sometimes when I hear them talk about it (I mean this from both sides).
As I've already said before- your "personal experience" and people "you know" are a bad source of information, since it's rather skewed.
I on another hand get my information from people I DON'T know. I read the news, watch youtube and take note what kind of comments get the biggest number of likes, whose youtube channels are increasing the amount of subscribers, how much and so on.
2 "formerly hostile" parts of the country were not all that hostile in the past by the way - they were rather indifferent to each other and lived their separate lives. The real hostility came after 2014.
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The nationalists do consider the people in the "DPR" as enemies though, but these are quite distinguished from the rest of the South East of Ukraine. This depends on how you define nationalists though
Well, I'd say that originally Ukrainian Nationalists are coming from the Western part of Ukraine - the part that sided with Hitler's Germany back in the day, and was really not a cultural part of Ukraine throughout most of its history, since it used to be part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And this kind of "Ukrainian identity" has been increasingly pushed upon the rest of Ukraine as the "only true Ukrainian identity" after the 2014 ( and during Yushenko time I suppose, but I was not paying close attention to Ukraine at that point in time.)
As for people like A. Biletsky ( the founder of "Azov battalion" et al) - i.e. people coming from the Eastern part of Ukraine, who consider themselves "Ukrainian Nationalists" - that's a slightly different story.
I was watching his interview recently, and in a few minutes after listening to him, it became apparent to me that this wingnut is a Russian lost in time and space. He needs to go back to his roots - i.e. his cossack roots of the Russian Empire circa end of the 1800ies- beginning of the 1900ies. He thinks of Ukraine in terms of the Russian Empire - as someone has nailed the summary of his speech - "We need the greatest economy, the greatest army, our own military block and intergalactic chess tournament. In no particular order." ( That's the comment that got the biggest number of likes - 875 or something. So obviously people take note of what Biletsky is all about. The reason he is a "Ukrainian nationalist" in the first place, is because "Russia proper" is already run by another "alpha-male" with a different set of ideas, so Ukraine needs to be turned into yet another Russia, that Biletsky and his people can run as their own project. And since anti-semitism and nationalism had its own place in Russian Empire, now Biletsky personifies it in Ukraine as "Ukrainian Nationalism," and that's what makes him close to the original Ukrainian nationalists from the Western part of the country. And that's where this "brotherly love," this "closeness" you are referring to, is really coming from.)))
The violence of 2014 is old news. The only nationalists in south east Ukraine are locals having an occasional flag waving event.
It was a new occurrence back in 2014, by now it's a routine part of the daily life, the inseparable part of it.
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I'm sorry, but Russians themselves are also participating in the conflict. It isn't just Russian ammo going to DPR Ukrainians (even though that is the majority of what's happening). Its a blurry line anyway. The casualties and prisoners captured during the conflict speak to this.
Of course they do. Why wouldn't they? Donbass ( as Crimea) is a national affair, even though the outcome is different.
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The casualties once again show that south east Ukrainians violently resisted the "insurrection" just as much as anyone from the west/central of the country.
The "insurrection" that took place in west/central parts of the country were against the Yanukovich presidency. So you are talking about something unrealistic here.
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This does depend on how you define South-East...More from Donetsk died on the DPR side. Dnipro and Kharkiv, nope.
Do you understand why the Nazi battalions were created and used during the so-called "anti-terrorist operation" in the first place?
Because the regular Ukrainian army ( or rather the part of conscripts that were originally from the Eastern Ukraine) were unreliable, when fighting the DNR people. Not only were they unenthusiastic about going to the battle filed, but they were switching sides in the process as well. It was nothing unheard of.
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Yes, there is a difference between those two. The other difference is while the cultural ties are stronger and they are still strong, the economic ties aren't attractive anymore (sorry!). Economic ties to Russia mean no reforms are needed to keep oligarchs from stealing.
You mean the new oligarch put in charge of the country ( i.e. Poroshenko) was not stealing?
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This does vary between cities and factories within them depending on their industries. Suppliers of Russian military equipment parts are the hardest hit. But that is over, no going back on that.
We simply don't know where it's all going, particularly in the light of the latest scandals and exposures.
In addition to the other falsehoods you are spewing on here about Ukraine, the biggest mistake is conflating the national guard with the army. They are totally separate because the national guard are run by the internal ministry. The internal ministry is not the general staff of the armed forces of Ukraine (who maintain the front line). The national guard replaced the internal troops, but many of them are the same guys in new uniforms.
You are also confused who the national guard is made up of which does not include the volunteer battalions. The volunteer battalions were all demobilized 3 to 4 years ago, with the exception of Azov (mostly guys from Donetsk region) reforming into a regiment. The Donbas battalion, led and formed by men from Crimea and the Donbas region are currently in reserve status.
They are demonized by Russian propaganda since they are the guys who were supposed to be fighting against Ukraine and not for them (being from the south east and all)...especially the guys from Crimea.
Reality is more important than conspiracy theories.
Oh but the National Guard DOES include the volunteer battalions. Look closely -
"In September 2014, the Azov battalion was expanded from a battalion to a regiment and enrolled into the National Guard of Ukraine.[25][35] At about this time it started receiving increased supplies of heavy arms.[35] The Azov battalion received funding from the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine and other sources (believed to be Ukrainian oligarchs).[35] So whilst its volunteers were officially paid 6,000 hryvnia ($316) per month, they really received around 10,000 hryvnia ($526) per month."
And that's what I was trying to explain to you earlier, that the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine (with A. Avakov in charge) has direct ties to all kinds of Nazi units/organizations that rule the streets of Ukraine. And that's why known killers that belong to these organizations walk away scot-free from any "trials."
And that's why there was such an outcry in the country, when Zelensky re-appointed Avakov in the same position, claiming that it was on "his own responsibility."
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