Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It doesn't have to be fought over in a literal sense. A fair election could be held to allow the Donbas to separate if they chose to. Many details would have to be worked out and no doubt they would be fought over (in a verbal sense) but in theory it could be done. Some difficult issues you should consider:
1) Who gets to vote? Only current occupants? What about the millions who fled and still own property there? What date of residence do we go back to? What age to cutoff? Isn't a 16 year old more impacted for life by this vote than an 80 year old in the area?
2) What about businesses that are owned by people living outside the region? They have to get reimbursed if their property is taken. Who will pay? This is an ongoing issue. There are businesses in occupied zones which were ransacked and lie in ruins.
3) The region needs to take over as a liability their fare share of national debts, much of which arose for subsidizing gas for their industry for the past 15 years.
4) What if the Donetsk and Luhansk people really want to leave but Mariupol and Kramatorsk don't want to? Its quite possible, so how to deal with this if it happens? Is it fair for the Donetsk city people to be stuck in Ukraine if 55% of Donetsk Oblast wants to stay but 80% of occupied part wants to leave?
I think you'd be surprised how many "western" Ukrainians would be fine with this. They really couldn't care less. If people near the Russian border want their Lenin statues and refuse to learn Ukrainian, why fight them. I don't know many people from the west side but the one I spoke to about this basically said it like that. But those issues I outlined are quite real to those in and from the south east.
It doesn't have to be fought over in a literal sense. A fair election could be held to allow the Donbas to separate if they chose to. Many details would have to be worked out and no doubt they would be fought over (in a verbal sense) but in theory it could be done. Some difficult issues you should consider:
1) Who gets to vote? Only current occupants? What about the millions who fled and still own property there? What date of residence do we go back to? What age to cutoff? Isn't a 16 year old more impacted for life by this vote than an 80 year old in the area?
2) What about businesses that are owned by people living outside the region? They have to get reimbursed if their property is taken. Who will pay? This is an ongoing issue. There are businesses in occupied zones which were ransacked and lie in ruins.
3) The region needs to take over as a liability their fare share of national debts, much of which arose for subsidizing gas for their industry for the past 15 years.
4) What if the Donetsk and Luhansk people really want to leave but Mariupol and Kramatorsk don't want to? Its quite possible, so how to deal with this if it happens? Is it fair for the Donetsk city people to be stuck in Ukraine if 55% of Donetsk Oblast wants to stay but 80% of occupied part wants to leave?
I think you'd be surprised how many "western" Ukrainians would be fine with this. They really couldn't care less. If people near the Russian border want their Lenin statues and refuse to learn Ukrainian, why fight them. I don't know many people from the west side but the one I spoke to about this basically said it like that. But those issues I outlined are quite real to those in and from the south east.
Oh really?
How come the new government in Kiev was not preoccupied with this kind of questions after the coup d'etat back in 2014?
Why were they not interested in who wants to stay in this newly-acquired American colony and who would rather not?
Why are you coming up with all these questions now all of a sudden, after the thousands of deaths and devastation in the Eastern part of the country?
Can't answer them either huh? Probably why those issues won't go away, since nobody can resolve it. To address them would force Russia to admit that not everyone wants to be part of their club.
Can't answer them either huh? Probably why those issues won't go away, since nobody can resolve it. To address them would force Russia to admit that not everyone wants to be part of their club.
Your questions were answered already long time ago.
This process is called "voting."
As in "the democratic process," you know.
And you know what/whom these regions voted overwhelmingly.
But it didn't matter to the Nazi paratroopers supported by American democrats in Kiev.
What did THEY care about the choice of the South-Eastern regions?
And now you are posing me some "voting questions," pretending that there should be some "democratic process" after all?
You're trying to argue that this issue has been voted on already? When was this (in this universe)? Or you mean like a Russian/Belarus style vote where the tough guys with guns decide the outcome and who gets to vote. Makes you mad doesn't it, that there are real problems to having a fair vote on this. I know, deep down inside, you are well aware that Ukrainians west of Luhansk would never vote to place themselves under Moscow control. Sorry but the Russian backed clowns running Donbas don't get to decide anything about Ukraine, and they would be lucky to be able to decide anything for themselves. Ironic if they decided to have a vote to join a country where voting isn't real.
No really, try to answer my questions if you think a vote could be held. You can't, which illustrates why it won't happen. A vote to join Russia cannot be tolerated by Russia if it fairly includes the voices of people who don't want to.
You're trying to argue that this issue has been voted on already? When was this (in this universe)? Or you mean like a Russian/Belarus style vote where the tough guys with guns decide the outcome and who gets to vote. Makes you mad doesn't it, that there are real problems to having a fair vote on this. I know, deep down inside, you are well aware that Ukrainians west of Luhansk would never vote to place themselves under Moscow control. Sorry but the Russian backed clowns running Donbas don't get to decide anything about Ukraine, and they would be lucky to be able to decide anything for themselves. Ironic if they decided to have a vote to join a country where voting isn't real.
No really, try to answer my questions if you think a vote could be held. You can't, which illustrates why it won't happen. A vote to join Russia cannot be tolerated by Russia if it fairly includes the voices of people who don't want to.
Of course it was.
Facts are a stubborn thing DKM.
This is what Ukraine looked on the verge of the coup d'etat of 2014.
Ahh, so not actual events that took place, rather like Russian "facts" similar to Soviet reality. A vote was said to have been held in the Donbas that represented the Donbas because well Russian media said so.
1) Who gets to vote? Only current occupants? What about the millions who fled and still own property there? What date of residence do we go back to? What age to cutoff? Isn't a 16 year old more impacted for life by this vote than an 80 year old in the area?
Good question. As it currently stands and if this is only about the break away regions then only the people currently living in the regions get to vote. No one who fled either to Russia or Ukraine should be allowed to vote for succession. I propose another vote also, this with Ukrainian citizens only. A separation of of the nation into 2 states, call them East and West Ukraine. Both sets of population seem to have major disagreements on how to do things so this could be a possible long term solution.
Quote:
2) What about businesses that are owned by people living outside the region? They have to get reimbursed if their property is taken. Who will pay? This is an ongoing issue. There are businesses in occupied zones which were ransacked and lie in ruins.
Fortunes of war. Tough, roll with the punches. Shoot the individuals who started Ukraine down this path if you want justice.
Quote:
3) The region needs to take over as a liability their fare share of national debts, much of which arose for subsidizing gas for their industry for the past 15 years.
Nope. The nummies who started this need to pay. The Donbas is the one that needs to be compensated.
Quote:
4) What if the Donetsk and Luhansk people really want to leave but Mariupol and Kramatorsk don't want to? Its quite possible, so how to deal with this if it happens? Is it fair for the Donetsk city people to be stuck in Ukraine if 55% of Donetsk Oblast wants to stay but 80% of occupied part wants to leave?
Sometimes life isn't fair. If 55% of Donbas wants to join Russia then the ones that don't can just leave. Want to go bigger? Do the whole of Ukraine, if somebody doesn't want to live in East Ukraine then GTFO. Go by majority.
Quote:
I think you'd be surprised how many "western" Ukrainians would be fine with this. They really couldn't care less. If people near the Russian border want their Lenin statues and refuse to learn Ukrainian, why fight them. I don't know many people from the west side but the one I spoke to about this basically said it like that. But those issues I outlined are quite real to those in and from the south east.
I've met people around here from western Ukraine. They hate the place, say the people are a special kind of murderous bastards. I think the whole region would be better off with Ukraine split and a fence built around the western part. Even my wifes family refused to deal with western Ukrainians as a matter of course. They couldn't be trusted.
Sometimes life isn't fair. If 55% of Donbas wants to join Russia then the ones that don't can just leave. Want to go bigger? Do the whole of Ukraine, if somebody doesn't want to live in East Ukraine then GTFO. Go by majority.
Read it again, I was talking about the opposite. You'd be okay with Donetsk having to stay in Ukraine if 55% of the Oblast voted to stay in? I bet not, you're only okay with the other way.
Ahh, so not actual events that took place, rather like Russian "facts" similar to Soviet reality. A vote was said to have been held in the Donbas that represented the Donbas because well Russian media said so.
Yes these were the "actual events" that took place.
That map clearly explained WHERE exactly the anti-government protests tool place, and what regions voted for Yanukovich and his "pro-Russian course" if you want to call it that.
So there were no protests there against the sitting government, the government that South-East voted for in democratic elections.
The inconvenient truth for the junta supporters, I understand.
But fact remains a fact.
And oh, by the way it's not the "Russian" map of the events.
This map came straight from the "Washington Post."
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
