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So is Poroshenko and the rest of this puppet government, that replaced Yanukovich.
And?
Nonsense. You make all of these false equivalences. Yeltsin and Poroshenk may not have been perfect leaders, but they didn't:
1. Seize control of all major TV networks
2. Change the constitution to allow them to handpick the state (oblast) leaders
3. Change the constitution to allow them to be president for life
4. Murder journalists and officials who try to investigate or critcize them
5. Murder or jail political opponents who try to run against them for election
The Russian army took over much of Europe in the aftermath of World War II. NATO is a security alliance that was first formed in 1949, between the remaining free nations of Europe and the USA, to defend against further Russian aggression. There was largely a stalemate between the Soviet Union and NATO for 40 years, with most of eastern Europe under repressive Russian rule - this was the "Cold War". The Soviet Union collapsed in the late 1980s/early 1990s with eastern European nations gaining independence from Russia. Since then, many eastern European nations have joined NATO, because they don't want to be taken by Russia again. Ukraine is not a NATO member, but they have requested membership.
Thank you! Why does Ukraine still not have NATO membership? And who within NATO decides which countries get in and which do not? Even those 2 questions, when searched online, do not really get answered without a long drawn-out opinion piece. I much prefer a succinct response - and appreciate the one you gave above on my previous question.
Last edited by bridgerider; 02-27-2022 at 11:44 AM..
Viktor Yanukovich was a thief on a grand scale - he stole billions from Ukraine. Moreover, he was loyal to Moscow, not Ukraine - it's not an accident that he lives in Russia now. And, he had his security forces shoot unarmed Ukrainian protesters. How anyone (outside of Russia) could think that having a person like that controlling Ukraine should have continued, I have no idea.
Unlike the USA with its Electoral College, Ukraine is the candidate with the most popular votes wins. The Ukrainians in Crimea and eastern Ukraine are ethnic Russians. The voted for him in large numbers.
The alternative, which we (USA) supported, are Ukrainian nationalist. They are the next generation of Ukrainian nationalist who at the end of WWII committed genocide against Poles. They want Ukraine to be a single ethnic group without Poles or Russian ethnic minorities.
It wasn't that any one wanted Viktor Yanukovich, it's Ukrainians were afraid of the alternative. Their fears were well founded.
So what your aren't being told in the USA misinformation campaign:
1) To spite what the USA press says, President Putin did not take over Crimea.
Quote:
Residents of Crimea voted on the contentious question in a referendum that also offered the option of remaining part of Ukraine, with increased autonomy.
The Crimean Peninsula is predominantly ethnic Russian, and residents say they fear being oppressed by the interim Ukrainian government that took over when President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted in February. Yanukovych fled to Russia after months of protest and bloodshed.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has said he will respect the voters' decision. The U.S. and EU have warned that annexation would prompt more economic sanctions against Russia.
Update at 8:30 a.m. ET: High Turnout At The Polls
More than 43 percent of Crimea's residents have voted, says Mikhail Malyshev, who heads Crimea's Supreme Council's commission, which organized the referendum.
That's according to a report from Sevastopol by NPR's Jessica Golloher.
"Malyshev says some 64 percent of the largest city in Crimea, Kerch, have voted and around 40 percent of Yaltans have cast their ballots," Jessica says. "International vote monitor Enrique Ravello of Spain also says turnout is high."
Update at 3:50 a.m. ET: Voter Enthusiasm
Voters lined up before polls opened and more than 70 people surged in during the first 15 minutes in the Crimean port city of Sevastopol, where Russia maintains its Black Sea fleet, according to the Associated Press.
"Today is a holiday," said one voter, 66-year-old Vera Sverkunova. Asked how she voted, she broke into a patriotic war song: "I want to go home to Russia, it's been so long since I've seen my mama," the AP said.
SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine -- Ukraine's Crimean peninsula declared itself independent Monday after its residents voted overwhelmingly to secede and join Russia, while the United States and the European Union slapped sanctions against some of those who promoted the divisive referendum.
Ukraine's political turmoil has become Europe's most severe security crisis in years and tensions have been high since Russian troops seized control of Crimea two weeks ago. Large numbers of Russian troops are also massed near the border with Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine, which has sharp political differences with the country's new government in Kiev.
Yes the USA protested the Crimea election, but it was a strategic political decision, not based any facts on the ground. There were INTERNATIONAL election monitors there. Let's not let democracy get in the way of USA foreign policy.
Quote:
The crisis heightened ethnic divisions, and two months later (in 2014) pro-Russian separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of eastern Ukraine held a referendum to declare independence from Ukraine.
The conflict in Ukraine is largely fuelled by ethnic and political divisions surrounding Ukraine’s relationship with Russia. Protests against Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych erupted in November 2013.
A violent crackdown by state security forces followed, drawing more protesters. By May 2014, President Yanukovych had fled the country.
The Russian military took over and formally annexed Ukraine’s Crimea region, and pro-Russian separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of eastern Ukraine declared independence, resulting in active conflict.
Between 2014 and the end of September 2021, more than 3,000 civilians have died and over 7,000 people have been injured because of the conflict. About 1.46 million people were displaced as at mid-December 2021. . Although the conflict has largely turned into a stalemate in recent years, clashes and shelling occur regularly, affecting 2.9 million people in need in eastern Ukraine – particularly those near the contact line that separates government-controlled areas (GCAs) from non-government-controlled areas (NGCAs). Conflict, movement restrictions, and COVID-19 containment measures are the main drivers of humanitarian needs in eastern Ukraine.
Despite multiple ceasefire agreements, violations are regularly reported, and critical civilian infrastructure (including water and electricity systems) is frequently damaged. Shelling and landmine contamination, especially in NGCAs, limits the ability to deliver services such as infrastructure repair or emergency medical transportation. Older people are more likely to remain in these areas and are therefore disproportionally affected by isolation and limited access to WASH, healthcare, food, and livelihoods.
Anyone wonder why the USA population isn't told about the ongoing eight year war for independence by eastern Ukraine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutdoorLover
Officials for Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, Austria and Iceland have all announced that they are closing their airspace to flights from Russia. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/27/cana...an-planes.html
How many countries fell for the Iraq and Afghanistan lies? It's no different now.
Nonsense. You make all of these false equivalences. Yeltsin and Poroshenk may not have been perfect leaders, but they didn't:
1. Seize control of all major TV networks
2. Change the constitution to allow them to handpick the state (oblast) leaders
3. Change the constitution to allow them to be president for life
4. Murder journalists and officials who try to investigate or critcize them
5. Murder or jail political opponents who try to run against them for election
Yeltsin simply bombed his own parliament, lol, so what "TV stations" are you talking about. And he was the one who APPOINTED Putin to become a president. How about that for "democratic president"?
That's just most well-known example, but there were plenty of other ( that is talking about yet another "great president" Poroshenko."
Under Poroshenko the whole state was run ( still is actually ) with the help of the paramilitary Nationalist units - they were/are everywhere on the streets, in the city councils, and on the front lines.
Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
^ The west wants to see a useless alcoholic like Yeltsin in charge. I mean if Putin losses this one and they replace him I'm sure it will be the disaster Navalny. God help Russia then. It will be as "rich" and "respected" as Bosnia and Bulgaria...
Unlike the USA with its Electoral College, Ukraine is the candidate with the most popular votes wins. The Ukrainians in Crimea and eastern Ukraine are ethnic Russians. The voted for him in large numbers.
The alternative, which we (USA) supported, are Ukrainian nationalist. They are the next generation of Ukrainian nationalist who at the end of WWII committed genocide against Poles. They want Ukraine to be a single ethnic group without Poles or Russian ethnic minorities.
It wasn't that any one wanted Viktor Yanukovich, it's Ukrainians were afraid of the alternative. Their fears were well founded.
So what your aren't being told in the USA misinformation campaign:
1) To spite what the USA press says, President Putin did not take over Crimea.
Yes the USA protested the Crimea election, but it was a strategic political decision, not based any facts on the ground. There were INTERNATIONAL election monitors there. Let's not let democracy get in the way of USA foreign policy.
^ The west wants to see a useless alcoholic like Yeltsin in charge. I mean if Putin losses this one and they replace him I'm sure it will be the disaster Navalny. God help Russia then. It will be as "rich" and "respected" as Bosnia and Bulgaria...
Euro, PART ( hopefully bigger part) of Russians understand it, all while these funny people here on this forum keep on wondering "why the stupid Russians still don't get rid of Putin, we prepared such a wonderful life for them."
You either lie or you are just a slow witted contrarian. The truth is out there, a lot of it. Debating with nazis and nazi sympathizers is pointless. I just want to warn a few remaining fresh readers of this thread that they just might tune in to official Russian propaganda and mythology instead of reading 8 years worth of Russian nazi bs in this thread.
I think you take a good look in the mirror.
I posted very solid sources for every single argument I made. In some cases, I posted more than one source. My sources were either USA or European sources without any Russian propaganda. It was well-reason and factual account of the Ukraine situation.
You state "The truth is out there, a lot of it" and yet you make no counterpoint and give no sources to disprove my points.
Here another American voice for you to consider:
Quote:
U.S. elites also had something to do with Putin’s ugly and destructive choice—a role that Democrats and Republicans are eager to paper over with noble-sounding rhetoric about the bravery of Ukraine’s badly outgunned military. Yes, the Ukrainian soldiers standing up to Putin are very brave, but it was Americans that put them in harm’s way by using their country as a weapon, first against Russia and then against each other, with little consideration for the Ukrainian people who are now paying the price for America’s folly.. . . .
It is not an expression of support for Putin’s grotesque actions to try to understand why it seemed worthwhile for him to risk hundreds of billions of dollars, the lives of thousands of servicemen, and the possible stability of his own regime in order to invade his neighbor. . . .
Rather, it is a geopolitical threat that has grown steadily more pressing and been employed with greater recklessness by Americans and Ukrainians alike over the past decade.
That Ukraine has allowed itself to be used as a pawn against a powerful neighbor is in part the fault of Kyiv’s reckless and corrupt political class. But Ukraine is not a superpower that owes allies and client-states judicious leadership—that’s the role of the United States. And in that role, the United States has failed Ukraine. More broadly, the use of Ukraine as a goad against enemies domestic and foreign has recklessly damaged the failing yet necessary European security architecture that America spent 75 years building and maintaining.
Why can’t the American security establishment shoulder responsibility for its role in the tragedy unfolding in Ukraine? Because to discuss American responsibility openly would mean exposing the national security establishment’s role in two separate, destructive coups: the first, in 2014, targeting the government of Ukraine, and the second, starting two years later, the government of the United States.
I posted very solid sources for every single argument I made. In some cases, I posted more than one source. My sources were either USA or European sources without any Russian propaganda. It was well-reason and factual account of the Ukraine situation.
You state "The truth is out there, a lot of it" and yet you make no counterpoint and give no sources to disprove my points.
It's a great well balance article which should be read before criticized.
Thank you Yourktowngirl for backing up your statements - I usually try to do the same.
This, of course, makes some people very angry here, since their purely emotional loyalties/wishful thinking based on hear-say, are scrutinized and dispelled in the broad daylight.
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