Any Calvinists here? (missionaries, vain, pastor, mission)
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When I read posts like these using the "we can't understand the mind of God" nonsense . . . I recognize it as the trap of ignorance that surrounded the OT and the NT cultural practices. I see satanic influence whenever it is raised as justification. The paradoxes, contradictions and inconsistencies HAD to be there if the SPIRITUAL import was to be applicable for ALL generations. It is our knowledge and evolving spirituality through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that enables us to see and question further to find the "solid food" within the primitive "milk." To justify retaining the primitive understanding by cloaking it with the same veil of ignorance that Jesus removed from the OT is nothing short of satanic deception. Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)
2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
I say again: scripture does not speak of predestination to hell. But it does speak of predestination to be elect or non-elect.
We've been over this. We both agree that scripture does not speak of predestination to hell.
Again, being that you are so bent on believing Calvin asserted predestination to hell, isn't it odd that such a view does not appear in scripture?
It seems to me that anyone with half a brain can see that - even John Calvin whom you apparently perceive to be some sort of moron.
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Originally Posted by legoman
It seems you misunderstood my point or are (perhaps unknowingly) twisting my words. Calvin knows that scripture speaks of predestination to being elect or non-elect. He also believes the nonelect are not saved, therefore he logically concludes people are predestined to hell (because people are predestined to be non-elect). That is simple logic, which so far you have not grasped.
In the portions of Calvin's writings that you purposely choose to overlook, Calvin basically (my interpretation here) states that we should take care not to read or draw inferences beyond that which is clearly revealed - which is exactly what you've been doing with your ignorant OP.
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Originally Posted by legoman
You implied that all are elected in your analogy in post #169, and didn't deny it when I commented on it later. You said:
How about this analogy: Two people in the room are invited to have lunch. One accepts the invite and the other chooses to dine elsewhere. Both are invited (elected) but one decides to refuse (not run for election).
If you wish to change your analogy then please let me know. Otherwise your analogy is asserting all are elected, but some refuse God's election (as if that were possible).
There is absolutely no reason for me to change my analogy. Again, there is no such thing as a perfect analogy. My analogy was presented to offset your analogy of a puppet master God.
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Originally Posted by legoman
I'm not claiming to be an expert on Calvinism. But I've read my fair share on it.
Absolutely. You've read the "fair share" that you prefer to see as supporting your template.
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Originally Posted by legoman
More ad hom. So far you have subtly jabbed that I "worship at the alter of Pink" and now claiming my argument is absurd, without giving any evidence its wrong. Can you actually address the argument and what Calvin said without the ad hom please? How about some evidence from Calvin supporting what you say? You can't simply bash what I say without providing counter evidence.
Example: I say "Calvin said ..."
Instead of you saying this: No that's wrong and absurd (no evidence given); you take everything out of context (no evidence given); I don't worship at the altar of some irrelevant person (subtle ad hom).
When instead you could say: No I believe you are mistaken because you have to take this other statement that Calvin made into account. Let me show you some evidence of what he said.
But so far you have not done that.
What good would it do for me to attempt to get in to some sort of tit-for-tat over Calvin's writings. You've demonstrated that you're only willing to recognize the parts that appear to conform to your view.
If your mind is truly open, read Calvin in entirety and get your own house in order before you come to a forum such as this with your outlandish assertions.
Hows that for an "ad hom?"
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Originally Posted by legoman
There you go misrepresenting what I said again! Read the quote in purple above, and compare it to what you wrote. I DID NOT say the non-elect are the same as "predestined to go to hell" period. You forgot the qualifier: if you believe the nonelect are not saved.
Let me explain it again:
Scripture shows some are predestined to be elect and some are predestined to be nonelect. Calvin & I agree here.
Scripture does not say the nonelect are not saved. This is where Calvin & I disagree. But if you do believe the nonelect are not saved, then you must also believe the nonelect are predestined to hell, because scripture shows us they were predestined to be nonelect. That is simple logic.
Calvin does not assert a predestination to hell because scripture (as we both already agree) does not assert a predestination to hell.
It doesn't require any great deal of critical thinking in order to get this. You are just plain unwilling to acknowledge the obvious.
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Originally Posted by legoman
God created the wicked.
Agreed.
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Originally Posted by legoman
They were wicked when He created them - they were created that way.
Scripture is quite clear that Adam and Eve were not created "wicked." They chose to disobey. They chose to commit wickedness.
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Originally Posted by legoman
That means God intended the wicked - wait for it - TO BE WICKED!
Where does scripture confirm your view?
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Originally Posted by legoman
Shocking I know. So the first cause for the wicked to do wicked things is GOD because God created them. There are plenty of scripture that say this, but here is a plain one:
Prov 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
God, on purpose, made the wicked for the day of evil.
Where is the direct correlation to Adam and Eve?
Yes, God created the wicked knowing they would choose to engage in wickedness. Again, God is not the evil puppet master who causes his creatures to engage in wickedness.
The doctrine of Calvinism baffle me. I find it truly warped IMHO. Perhaps its just me.
This is what Calvinism says:
1. God predestines a man to sin
2. God predestines the man to eternal torture for the sins the man was predestined to do.
And somehow this is justice.
Justice?
Does that make sense to anyone here?
Perhaps the reason Calvinism baffles you is because you have read so little of it. At least that seems to be the situation judging from your post. I'm not a Calivinist, but the way I understand it, The main tenet of Calvinism is called "Selective Salvation" or "Salvation for the Few" and basically says that, despite how good you life your life or how hard you try, not eveyone is gonna go to heaven, pal. God already has chosen a select few, by his Grace, and you're either on the list or you ain't.
Boy, this one just ticks some people off to no end. Me, I kinda find it amusing. It's like Heaven is a great big celestial Trendy L.A. Night Club, where people dress in all their best and weirdest finery and stand outside in line waiting for some neanderthal bouncer to give them the nod and let them slide under the ropes to come inside and pay exorbitant fees for watered down drinks and listen to brain-numbing music.
See, The bouncer is the human version of the Guardian Angel. Yeah! And the watered down drinks are the false salve of promised salvation. And the music is the cacaphony of fundies on Earth arguing their various points on Religion: that bloodstained hoax!
Exactly. It is a logical contradiction to say some are predestined to heaven, but the rest are not predestined to anything.
Then why doesn't scripture assert a "predestination to hell?"
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Originally Posted by legoman
TigetMax here is the logical proof you need to understand:
We can take all people who ever existed, and put them in one of two groups, which we will call group "A" and group "not-A". "A" is the opposite of "not-A". These two groups are exclusive. If you are in one group, you can't also be in the other group.
Now scripture says some are predestined to "A". Implicitly we know that everyone else is "not-A". Since they were not predestined to be in "A", they are in "not-A"; Since those in "A" were predestined to be in "A", we can also say those in "not-A" were predestined to be "not-A", since the two groups are exclusive.
Are you with me so far? Replace "A" with "elect" and you will see I have just proven that scripture says some are predestined to be elect and some are predestined to be non-elect. If you disagree with this, please explain logically how it can be any different.
This is a scriptural truth: all people are predestined to be in one of only two groups - elect or non-elect.
The natural state of man is reprobation. Not because of God the puppet master but because of mans natural wicked inclinations. From this group (all inclusive) God sovereignly predestines a select (elect) group for intervention and turns them away from their reprobation through the act of conversion. To my knowledge, this is all scriptural and in line with the view of the reformers.
I've put this into laymans terms - because that's all I am. That is my explaination.
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Originally Posted by legoman
Now we must determine what happens with the non-elect. TigetMax, you believe the non-elect are not saved. If one holds to this belief, logically you can only conclude that God predestines people to be not saved, because He predestines people to be non-elect.
As stated, reprobation is mans natural state due to their own wickedness. No "predestination to hell' is required. That's why, presumably, the term "predestination to hell" does not appear in scripture.
As stated, reprobation is mans natural state due to their own wickedness. No "predestination to hell' is required. That's why, presumably, the term "predestination to hell" does not appear in scripture.
To be clear . . . I consider the selective cult of Calvinism to be a satanic corruption of God's message of love for ALL through Jesus. That said . . . how on earth can you say man's natural state is reprobate . . but that our sovereign God did not predestine it. Who else made us that way? The illogic throughout Calvinism is legion.
To be clear . . . I consider the selective cult of Calvinism to be a satanic corruption of God's message of love for ALL through Jesus. That said . . . how on earth can you say man's natural state is reprobate . . but that our sovereign God did not predestine it. Who else made us that way? The illogic throughout Calvinism is legion.
To be clear, you are free to think of me as Satan incarnate and hate my guts with a purple passion if you so choose.
In answer to your question, I can say that man's natural state is reprobation because we are all sinners. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
It's actually a simple concept and doesn't require any in depth sort of critical thinking.
To be clear, you are free to think of me as Satan incarnate and hate my guts with a purple passion if you so choose.
I would never hate you or think any such thing about you because of your beliefs, tigetmax . . . it is the doctrine that I consider evil . . . not the followers . . . they are just misguided.
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In answer to your question, I can say that man's natural state is reprobation because we are all sinners. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
It's actually a simple concept and doesn't require any in depth sort of critical thinking.
It IS simple . . . God made us . . . so whatever we are He intended and predestined that is the way we should be . . . unless you think God made a mistake.
Because he my friend was the only man except Jesus there ever was that had what so many like to think we all have. A free will. God had no desire to create a robot. The bible says that we were made in the image of God. God made man with a free will and man used this free will to become "Like God" in rebellion to God. This act limited the "Free will" of all Adam's decendents. The bible pictures this loss of free will as a spiritual death. That is why we are "Dead in our sins". We have lost in Adam the ability to choose to follow God. That is why Jesus said, "You must be born again" of the spirit. It takes a miracle of God to change our dead heart of stone into a living heart of flesh.
We are all born with this problem and in no way can we change that on our own. If Jesus had been born with this Adamic nature He could never have been the "New Adam" And a representitive of all His people.
The thing that always strikes me in this kind of debate is.
1, " God can't be like that, it's not fair." I raised 8 kids and the first thing that they ever said when not getting their way or being punished for something was "It's not fair".
This human idea of fairness is just that, a human idea. God is a God of Justice and Truth. He is true to his word and all will be judged by Him. If in His own soveriegn will He decides to set some apart for his special favour that is His right to do. For those who would complain about that I would say, You can't expect more than Justice. It's like the man on death row, the president gives him a pardon. The president does not have to have any reason for this. It's within his power and perogitive to do it. Now the rest of the cons on death row can cry and moan all they want that it's not fair but what they got already was fair. They got Justice. The one who was set free, what he got was not fair either, he got Grace.
2, Another point that I would like to make is that so many times in this discussion I get the distinct feeling that there are many who believe that in some way God owes Fallen sinful man something. Other than His justice he owes us nothing.
I was thinking about this when I was reading the post about Jacob and Essa. I can remember when I was a child and I really did not understand the story at all. I liked Essa a lot better than I liked Jacob. Jacob was sneaky and underhanded. His very name means ursuper. When I grew up I began to understand the story. God needs no reason to elect anyone to his special favour. It is done out of his sovereign will for His own reasons that we will never know in this world.
Calvinists have a few very big problems They really cant be sure if they're saved and therefore cant be sure if God really loves them And if they're not really sure if they're loved & saved how can they offer salvation to anyone else or tell someone else about Gods love & salvation for them ?? It becomes the gospel of MAYBE & BUT MAYBE God chose you before the foundations of the world MAYBE God loves you MAYBE Jesus even died for your sins BUT we cant be sure and we have no way of verifying it One thing is for sure you Calvinists have absolutely no right whatsoever to tell anyone on the face of the earth that God loves them and that Jesus died for an individuals sins because you have no way of verifying this unless He died for everybody.....
And the funny thing is thats what the whole "GOOD NEWS" is based upon. That He died for everyones transgressions and forgiveness is available to everyone both Jew & Gentile...
MAYBE is not "GOOD NEWS" And another thing...If jesus told us to love and pray for our enemies then that really means to love everyone under the harshest of circumstances. He not only tells us to but commands us to... And if He's commanding us to love everybody then that means He loves everybody. NOT some of us.....ALL of us
"While we were yet sinners Christ died for us"
LIMITED ATONEMENT is the devils tool to bring in doubts,maybe's and buts
And since God is Love and the source of all true love... how could He tell us to love and forgive everybody if He hadnt.... That would be impossible...
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