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Old 02-16-2007, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,081,772 times
Reputation: 2000001303

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Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
\
There you go pontificating again with your long winded statements that don’t really go anywhere. It was clear that I was saying that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible. However both have different sets of beliefs based on the message they chose to accept. All your ranting states is that the concept of God for Christians is different than Muslims so they cannot be the same, but you contradict yourself and say that Jews and Christians have vast differences in the concept of God but they are the same. Yeah, real logical statement from you.
You might want to go back to page 7 where I addressed this issue and I'll quote myself:
"However, I pointed out that there are differences in how Jews and Christians view God. Jews for example by and large don't accept Jesus as Messiah, though to Christians He's the reason d'etre. Clearly a difference in perceiving God.
I've also made it clear straight from Jewish scriptures that the concept of Trinity in God is not alien to the Jewish faith and showed examples which are not diametrically opposed to Christian theology and help show that we worship the same God, yet you ignore that and choose to state they cannot then be worshipping the same God. I nowhere deny that Jews view God differently than Christians- in fact, as you pointed out, I emphasized some of those differences. I do show however that they worship the same God by outlining basic characteristics of God using examples from the Jewish Torah to support that claim.
You choose to ignore that."

That refutation of your statement still stands...clearly, though it's puzzles me you need to hear it twice and pretend you were never rebutted to begin with.....

All your posts support each and every bit of my statement that they have a different message from the same God, so thank you for that. When trying to rebut my statements, you just like to use the bible to rebut the Quran. That’s like me claiming that Jesus of the bible wasn’t the son of God because the Quran says so? But apparently all you like to do is get on your soapbox and claim everyone else is wrong because you have the definitive and 100% wholly accurate information because you possess the ability to validate sources. Oh wise and mighty sage, please show us the way down the path of tunnel vision.
To see support in my statements for the argument that Jehovah and Allah are the same is sheer rejection of reality! That's like showing why the sky is blue because of how the light spectrum works and then proclaiming..See!! You've proved it's orange for me!!! Do you actually read your statements???And, you're welcome!

No use trying to argue with you because you only see it from your Christian perspective, as you have explicitly stated before, and only use “sources” that support your belief and quote from “sources” that support your “sources” That’s like saying, David Duke is right because the grand wizard said so.
Of course I use sources that support my claim, including God's own Word. Have you noticed that you refer to no sources at all?
As for arguing with me, you don't seem to have the ability to argue a debate at all.
You have offered nothing. Absolutely nothing. I just find it weird that's all.

Last edited by MoMark; 02-16-2007 at 05:07 PM..
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,167,048 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
Of course I use sources that support my claim, including God's own Word.

You know Momark, I thought maybe there was some serious head trauma or too similar bloodlines during conception to answer for your inability to understand the nature and issues of what you’re arguing. Then I found the answer from two of your statement: one, that you argue from a Christian perspective, and two, that your absolute proof is “God’s word”.

So it actually boils down to unless the point being made or the source being used conforms to your viewpoint or set of beliefs, it is automatically false because it is contrary to your belief of God’s word. All other religions are false because they don’t have the same system of beliefs or concept of God, and what proof do you have that they are false, well the response of critics of those beliefs. How do you choose to understand the tenets of another faith, by their critics. So your selectively choose sources that conform to your belief and you validate them with like minded sources.

To even effectively debate an issue, you need to understand the viewpoints of the issues being debated, all you do is claim the truth because of “God’s word” and sources that support your belief, not the truth, but your belief of what is true. That’s why you take these garrulous routes on your statements, it’s because you don’t understand or try to understand the truth of other faiths. You’re too wrapped up in your unwavering commitment to your faith to have an open mind towards understanding other beliefs. That’s why the arguments go round and round with you, you only understand that which agrees with you, everything else is “opinionated” rubbish in your closed mind.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,081,772 times
Reputation: 2000001303
Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
You know Momark, I thought maybe there was some serious head trauma or too similar bloodlines during conception to answer for your inability to understand the nature and issues of what you’re arguing. Then I found the answer from two of your statement: one, that you argue from a Christian perspective, and two, that your absolute proof is “God’s word”.

So it actually boils down to unless the point being made or the source being used conforms to your viewpoint or set of beliefs, it is automatically false because it is contrary to your belief of God’s word. All other religions are false because they don’t have the same system of beliefs or concept of God, and what proof do you have that they are false, well the response of critics of those beliefs. How do you choose to understand the tenets of another faith, by their critics. So your selectively choose sources that conform to your belief and you validate them with like minded sources.

To even effectively debate an issue, you need to understand the viewpoints of the issues being debated, all you do is claim the truth because of “God’s word” and sources that support your belief, not the truth, but your belief of what is true. That’s why you take these garrulous routes on your statements, it’s because you don’t understand or try to understand the truth of other faiths. You’re too wrapped up in your unwavering commitment to your faith to have an open mind towards understanding other beliefs. That’s why the arguments go round and round with you, you only understand that which agrees with you, everything else is “opinionated” rubbish in your closed mind.
I haven't vented my actual opinion of you personally and have spared you direct attacks on a personal level. Though I see you continue to take the low road. True I've ripped apart your posts from a debate position, but you should expect that when they're so poorly argued and written, and not just from me.
Why haven't you argued from a position of your beliefs or even from a neutral stance? I've asked you to do so. In connection with you, my argument hasn't been anything other than Allah is not Jehovah with a repeated refutation in response to your deliberate misstatement about the Jews/Christians/Jehovah issue.
You perceive that as an attack on Muslims. I also showed that both religions blatantly state what the attributes of God or Allah are. There's no manipulation of facts. It's a very, very simple argument with very straightforward points of reference and clearly shows they are diametrically opposed. I've asked you to explain the problem that creates...even using a simple analogy in hopes there might be a mental breakthrough with oranges and apples being fruits, but clearly not the same fruits as if you squeeze the orange, you don't get apple juice. That seemed to ricochet off the noggin and you still insist the orange is the same fruit as the apple. You see they're both fruit, but you ignore their "characteristics". Instead, you keep refering to the 'concept' of the fruit... I'm not sure if you just used the word erroneously or truly believe you made a logical point in its accepted definition....
It is you who has chosen to ignore the facts, ignore the obvious difficulties your statement brings to logic, and you offer no supporting references, sources, or documentation from your own standpoint. You don't even offer a sentence fragment of logical argument...even unsupported, but instead you go into personal attacks in light of your impotence. Even your personal attacks lack sophistication or cleverness (see above!). Sometimes one can at least get a good laugh out of clever nastiness....but debate isn't the only thing you're not good at apparently... I've also purposely avoided pointing out your spelling issues because anyone can make them, though you seem to do it more frequently. I'm not a perfect speller either, but I usually will pull up a second browser, then my Mail, then open a new email, insert the word I'm not sure about, spellcheck it, then write it in my post correctly. That was a helpful hint for you. Or, you can just copy and paste your whole post into a new email, spellcheck it, make the corrections, then copy and paste it back into your posting for convenience.
I do have an opinion of your intellect. It's not high, but I won't use the word that comes first and foremost to mind to label it for you here. If you'd like it directly, just ask me privately and I'd be happy to let you know

Last edited by MoMark; 02-16-2007 at 11:05 PM..
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:11 AM
 
1,393 posts, read 924,962 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amavel View Post
Alas the truth rises to the surface. This would explain your extremely misguided viewpoints pertaining to the Quran, Muslims, and Islam in general. Perhaps you should have mentioned this bit of information in your first post.
No more then their misconceptions of Christians. In none of my postings have I spoke about their book or leading you to believe I know their faith. I don't believe I have not said what they are showing us. The suicide bombings women and children led to believe to kill their selves or give their child is a way to Heaven. If this is not a part of the religion then, leaders of this faith need to step forward and denounce this . When leaders are asked on T.V. they just say they are Gods people. I don't believe God will ask you to kill another race off the earth. The hate they have for Israel, not sure if it's all Muslims or some if these things are not true then, why are so many Muslims afraid to speak out. I know nothing about the Middle East and their complicated religion just know it's the center and the focus of religion.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:23 AM
 
1,393 posts, read 924,962 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
Most Muslims aren't radical, not anymore than most Christians are. It's the Fundamentalists within both groups that cause most of the religious problems.
I understand that their are radicals in each religion. These people call upon the killing of infidels all non-Muslim beleivers.
The Christian faith does not call for killing and I just feel that the Catholic Church should have done more in communicating with the radical Muslims a long time ago before we have what we have now. But, we all know it's a "Holy War" the insurgents in Iraq are showing us this.
There religion is dangerous and if you truly believe that killing will get you to Heaven then thats what you do, if Christians were asked this I am sure thats what we would do ,the Christian God doesn't ask this of us.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:40 AM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,334,045 times
Reputation: 3319
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
I've told you why I don't respect your posts. You put me on ignore for giving you my opinion, though I see that's changed. But I reaffirm my original statement to you and will use the following thread title as an example why I don't respect your posts:
Darfur=Holocaust.

Case closed.
I put you on ignore because you thought it was your place to critique my posting "style" rather than substance, and your original post implied that I should be subservient to your wishes so that you might "respect" me.

I tried to find your original post but I guess it has been deleted.

I don't care if you respect me or my posts. I am not posting for your benefit but rather for mine. No one pays me to do this so I believe I can post using any sort of "style" I choose -- whether it be short and pithy or long and verbose.

"Darfur = Holocaust" was merely meant to start a discussion on Darfur.

Back on ignore.
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:51 AM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,334,045 times
Reputation: 3319
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
I understand that their are radicals in each religion. These people call upon the killing of infidels all non-Muslim beleivers.
The Christian faith does not call for killing and I just feel that the Catholic Church should have done more in communicating with the radical Muslims a long time ago before we have what we have now. But, we all know it's a "Holy War" the insurgents in Iraq are showing us this.
There religion is dangerous and if you truly believe that killing will get you to Heaven then thats what you do, if Christians were asked this I am sure thats what we would do ,the Christian God doesn't ask this of us.
What about the Christian abortion clinic bombers? They are also radicals in my opinion yet they feel justified in killing others for religious reasons.

I just found this index on Wikipedia which is kind of interesting: Religiously motivated violence in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._United_States

Not only are the 9/11 hijackers included, but so are the Salem witch trials!
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:01 AM
 
Location: on an island
13,382 posts, read 40,950,543 times
Reputation: 13245
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
There religion is dangerous and if you truly believe that killing will get you to Heaven then thats what you do, if Christians were asked this I am sure thats what we would do ,the Christian God doesn't ask this of us.
Spanish Inquisition anyone? I'd call that rather extreme.
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,081,772 times
Reputation: 2000001303
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
I put you on ignore because you thought it was your place to critique my posting "style" rather than substance, and your original post implied that I should be subservient to your wishes so that you might "respect" me.

I tried to find your original post but I guess it has been deleted.

I don't care if you respect me or my posts. I am not posting for your benefit but rather for mine. No one pays me to do this so I believe I can post using any sort of "style" I choose -- whether it be short and pithy or long and verbose.

"Darfur = Holocaust" was merely meant to start a discussion on Darfur.

Back on ignore.
No, it wasn't your style, it was and remains your lack of substance... I simply called you on it.
I appreciate the ignore actually Best to you.

Last edited by MoMark; 02-17-2007 at 10:21 AM..
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:55 AM
 
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
381 posts, read 1,551,165 times
Reputation: 220
Haven't read the whole thread, but I would like to address a couple of things:

First, "Allah" is not the God of the Bible. The name "Allah" is a contraction of "al" and "ilah," the generic name for "god." Hence, when Muslims say "There is no god but Allah," they are really saying, "There is no ilah but Allah," otherwise it would be, "There is no allah but Allah." Allah is simply the name of the god of Islam, like Jehovah or Yahweh is the name of the God of the Jews and Christians.

Also, the Qu'ran clearly says several times (I don't have the references at the moment) that Allah has no son, and that it would make Allah less if he did. However, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Regarding Christians and Muslims being equally guilty in wars and bloodshed:

Someone has mentioned the Crusades. Well, it seems to me that instead of looking at the actions of these people who are assumed to be Christian (they were actually Roman Catholic), wouldn't it make more sense to look at the teachings of the Bible they follow, to see whether or not they are following their religion correctly? But instead we find ourselves watching the actions of people who call themselves Christians, and assume that the Christian faith is bad in and of itself, just because some people are acting wrongly in the name of Christianity.

There is no denying that many, many horrible acts of violence and hate have been done in the name of God. Even Hitler had the backing of the Pope, but he was a humanist who believed that the Jews were lower on the evolutionary scale. He was by no means a Christian!

And lastly, on the topic of religion itself:

The Bible actually condemns organized religion. Faith in Jesus Christ is personal, not governmental. The Bible actually defines what pure religion that is acceptable to God is: Looking after orphans and widows in their need. But that is not the essence of the Christian faith, it is a by-product.

Look around at the Christians. What do you see? You see some that are hypocrites, right? But then there are others who are kind, loving and help others, who practice what they preach, and aren't out for themselves. Which do you think Jesus would call His disciple?
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