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Old 03-29-2014, 01:48 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,169 posts, read 13,249,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
They have been saying that for weeks now, and indeed haven't invaded. Again the war-mongering Ukrainian and Western crooks claiming the opposite were - deliberately - wrong. Just like they were deliberately wrong on Iran building a nuclear weapon and many other accusations...
These are on going events and may or may not happen yet.

Its funny today because we have become so used to everything fast paced that we expect everything to happen immediately. Sort of like a 2 hour movie or a half an hour TV show. But real life does not usually work that fast.
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,491 posts, read 6,344,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
They have been saying that for weeks now, and indeed haven't invaded. Again the war-mongering Ukrainian and Western crooks claiming the opposite were - deliberately - wrong. Just like they were deliberately wrong on Iran building a nuclear weapon and many other accusations...
Funny how facts get twisted... Who's military invaded another country? Was it the West? I don't think so.
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:06 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,745,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
Funny how facts get twisted... Who's military invaded another country? Was it the West? I don't think so.
The Russians were basically asked by Ukrainian Russians to come and liberate Crimea. There was no invasion as such...
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,491 posts, read 6,344,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
The Russians were basically asked by Ukrainian Russians to come and liberate Crimea. There was no invasion as such...
And who was authorized to "invite" them? Aksenov, who was installed by Moscow himself? "The people"? How many of them? Oh wait, we can't tell because the Russians messed with the referendum...

Plus, if the behaviour of the Russian doesn't qualify as invasion or war-mongering, how on earth are Westerners the war-mongering brutes in your opinion then?
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Old 03-29-2014, 04:25 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,745,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
And who was authorized to "invite" them? Aksenov, who was installed by Moscow himself? "The people"? How many of them? Oh wait, we can't tell because the Russians messed with the referendum...

Plus, if the behaviour of the Russian doesn't qualify as invasion or war-mongering, how on earth are Westerners the war-mongering brutes in your opinion then?
They authorized themselves. That is also what the Ukrainians did when they ousted their president. Like any coup it was illegal... Which is also why the Russians don't recognized the new government in Kiev. I might also ask how many Ukrainians wanted the president ousted. Anyone counted them?

War-mongering can be subtle, it doesn't have to mean openly pointing a gun at someone. Nato is the main war-monger and culprit as they expanded beyond Germany to the east, despite the West's promise not to. That is also why Russia is more or less hostile towards the West, we are not trustworthy in their eyes, and neither in mine...
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Old 03-29-2014, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Estonia
1,704 posts, read 1,837,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
They authorized themselves. That is also what the Ukrainians did when they ousted their president. Like any coup it was illegal... Which is also why the Russians don't recognized the new government in Kiev. I might also ask how many Ukrainians wanted the president ousted. Anyone counted them?

War-mongering can be subtle, it doesn't have to mean openly pointing a gun at someone. Nato is the main war-monger and culprit as they expanded beyond Germany to the east, despite the West's promise not to. That is also why Russia is more or less hostile towards the West, we are not trustworthy in their eyes, and neither in mine...
The nations east of Germany wanted to be a part of NATO, it was their will, not NATOs. The West shouldn't care at all what the Russians think of them because they themselves certainly don't give a s#!t at all. It's wrong to think that the area east of Germany is Russia's playground and that it can do whatever it wishes with them. It's not OK. Every sovereign nation can decide for themselves which path they take. If Russia doesn't like it...well too bad, they don't have a say in it.
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Old 03-29-2014, 06:41 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,745,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KuuKulgur View Post
The nations east of Germany wanted to be a part of NATO, it was their will, not NATOs. The West shouldn't care at all what the Russians think of them because they themselves certainly don't give a s#!t at all. It's wrong to think that the area east of Germany is Russia's playground and that it can do whatever it wishes with them. It's not OK. Every sovereign nation can decide for themselves which path they take. If Russia doesn't like it...well too bad, they don't have a say in it.
It doesn't matter. Nato has broken their promise. They could simply have refused to grant Poland etc. Nato membership. In that case Russia might have become a potential EU country itself by now.
Why would Russia not have a say in what happens in its front garden? Remember the fuss the US made during the Cuban missile crisis? Nobody wants people in their front garden that they don't trust...

Again, the West has to forget its ridiculous attitude that the West is good and who is against the West is bad.
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:31 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
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I was listening an interesting interview yesterday that Ukrainian deputy Oleg Zarev ( from the Party of Regions) gave to Russian TV;


28.03.2014

-We are having the ( phone) interview with deputy of Verkovna Rada Oleg Zarev from the Party of Regions;
We would like you to comment on latest events... We see that there is ongoing attempt to storm Rada by the Right Sector - what you you tell us about that, how in your opinion it's all going to end up?
Zarev - Well we were basically expecting this to happen, because after one of the leaders of UNA-UNSA have been shot, ( Sashko Bely,) the Right Sector had to come up with some reaction, because otherwise an attempt of Pravy Sector Leader ( Dmitro Yarosh) to run for presidency would have come to zero. So now we'll see how the events will develop...Will the Right Sector make everyone to acknowledge them or not.
-So what's your prognosis - will some new figures appear in power or there will be a carousel of the old figures around this.. power in Kiev - call it power, junta - whatever... is it going to be.. ( sorry for this of-color expression) this scrabble? What it's going to look like?
Zarev - I think the confrontation will be only growing before the presidential elections an then there is a crisis in the country..That's on one hand; on another hand - all this will be happening with the background of anti-Russian rhetoric.
Today there was order issued to reduce the activities of Ukrainian embassy in Moscow practically to zero. Someone will be left there, but 150 people with family members will have to part from Moscow with the train before this weekend and the rest will take a flight. So one one hand Ukrainian embassy will stop its activities in Moscow, and on another hand the embassy workers received the explanation that a stand-of with Russia is expected, up to military confrontation. Ad we've seen today these military actions - there was a takeover of of navigational station belonging to Black Sea fleet in Genichesk... Thanks lord this station has been deactivated and there were only three soldiers there and no arms have been used. If the arms were used, however, that would have played right into hands of Kiev's government. Because as the salaries are going to be cut, (and so are the subsidies,) pensions will go unpaid, the price of utilities will start climbing - the government will need to point at external enemy. So the upcoming elections will be happening amidst the conflict between Pravy Sector and Timoshenko block - the group that's currently is in power, between the other presidential candidates and Russia will be actively portrayed as an enemy.
-So you think the elections are possible?
-Yes, if they'll press them as soon as possible, because the more the time is passing the more the chances of today's government are diminishing ( for elections.) The more economic situation will worsen, the more people will understand that the revolution took place on Maidan, that people were killed, that economy got worse, that the country lost its territorial integrity,and all this has been done only with a purpose to have elections a little bit earlier. They'll start asking questions and the TV propaganda that works today will stop working. That's why the goal of today's government is to hold the elections as soon as possible, while there are still money, while the gold reserves are not gone completely, and while it's still possible to consolidate the voters.
- Oleg Anatolievitch, now going back to what you've said about Ukrainian embassy in Moscow and the takeover of the deactivated navigational station ( although I don't understand why the takeover of the deactivated military object was necessary..) but is my impression correct overall that we should expect provocations?
Zarev - You understood me correctly and it's important to not to give in into these provocations..Very important, because thie is what happened; all these conversations about Crimea occupation and annexation that happened without a single shot - it's difficult to call it occupation because of that. They need blood to be spilled between Russians and Ukrainians in order to effectively create a decisive image of Russia as an enemy. And here we have to do everything possible, everything possilbe for Ukrainian military and Russian military to not to spill this blood and to not put this card into the hands of the Nationalists.
- And do I understand correctly that provocations are possible first of all in Eastern Ukraine?
-Well, we've had information that Russian military uniforms were made in the West (of Ukraine).. I am looking at this takeover of the deactivated station, I talked to people from Ukrainian embassy and they share the same point of view that provocations now are very possible.


Yet interestingly enough if we'll look at the popularity of the potential presidential candidates backed by the West, it's low ( much lower as I've expected by the way.)

"Latest opinions polls give Mr Poroshenko about 25% of the vote, ahead of his presidential rivals, while Mr Klitschko and Ms Tymoshenko are lagging far behind. "

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Klitschko pulls out of presidential election

So it looks like Zarev is right - there is a crisis in Ukraine.
And while we are at that, I saw interesting news in one of the articles on this subject;

"One of Ukraine’s political scholars said that Timoshenko ordered Turchinov to «clean Maidan from garbage». The candidate for the «Führer’s» position is back, she is in Kiev now. The garbage is still there but the preparations for cleaning are underway. Foreign sponsors want it to be clean too. France said it wants paramilitary groups disarmed before it delivers financial aid. The Czech President says ditto, he believes getting rid of fascists would be a right thing for the Ukraine’s leaders to do."

Ukraine; Night of the Long Knives Again? | Dojo Rat

So we'll see what's developing, while keeping in mind that Pravy Sector is the force on whose backs Timoshenko et al came to power.
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,128 posts, read 24,808,159 times
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Tymoshenko has no political power, as she has no seat in the government. And the West see trough her. Tells something that the bun-head was in medical care in Germany for quite the time and Merkel didn't went to visit her once.
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Old 03-30-2014, 03:13 AM
 
Location: Estonia
1,704 posts, read 1,837,741 times
Reputation: 2293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
It doesn't matter. Nato has broken their promise. They could simply have refused to grant Poland etc. Nato membership. In that case Russia might have become a potential EU country itself by now.
Why would Russia not have a say in what happens in its front garden? Remember the fuss the US made during the Cuban missile crisis? Nobody wants people in their front garden that they don't trust...

Again, the West has to forget its ridiculous attitude that the West is good and who is against the West is bad.
Russia would never ever be a EU country, this is simply unimaginable. NATO would never attack Russia first. This is proven by the fact that the allies practice military defense against potential intruders, Russia on the other hand always practices the attack and invasion of other countries. That already gives a picture about Russia's intentions, it knows that it doesn't face a direct threat from a NATO member attacking it. If Russia wasn't so aggressive towards it's neighbors, Poland etc. needn't be members of NATO, so only Russia is to blame for countries in the eastern art of Europe joining the NATO. It's their right to seek protection from an attack of the Russians.
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