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Fear of Hell....I have never had any fear of hell....pain is normal for me....torture is exciting for me....hell sounds bad but I have never been scared of it even from birth...never feared death... but heaven sounded better....answers to questions sounded great.....I was ready for hell when God ripped me from it kicking and screaming.....you see I thought hell would be easy until He showed how easy heaven is.
Neither side really gets it, but Jesus does and anyone who choses to reject Him is of no more importance than the bug that hits a windsheild, the bird that falls from the sky, the flesh of this world. We are nothing more than instinct without Christ but with Christ we are alive even in death.
I'm curious how you interpret John 3:18 - certainly all of us did not believe at one point therefore we were "judgedalready".
John 3:18 ''He who believes in Him is not judged (krinetai); he who does not believe has been judged (krinetai) already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Judged - krinetai - krino; properly, to separate (distinguish), i.e. judge; [Strong's #2919]
We are all born under condemnation.
Everyone is born physically alive but spiritually dead - separated from God - already condemned to spend the eternal future in the lake of fire.
It is though receiving the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ that one comes out from under condemnation.
John 3:36 ''He who believes (pisteuōn) in the Son has (Present Active Indicative) eternal life; but he who does not obey (apeithōn) the Son shall not see (Future Middle Indicative) life, but the wrath of God abides on him
Believe - pisteuon - to be persuaded. [Strong's #G4100]
Pisteuon - from pistis - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. Credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) -- believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. [Strong's #544]
Does not obey - disobeys - apeithon - apeitheo - literally, refuse to be persuaded
All who die without placing their trust in Jesus Christ remain under condemnation and shall not see eternal life in the future.
I think we keep thinking on this subject based on our current limited knowledge and perception. Once we are in a position of understanding all things....then everything God says now will make perfect sense to us. Until that time comes though, to make judgment calls based on our limited understanding and play around with eternity trying to over-think it...is probably a foolish choice. Best just to trust Him and do what He says. The rest of the puzzle will come together at the right time.
Fear of Hell....I have never had any fear of hell....pain is normal for me....torture is exciting for me....hell sounds bad but I have never been scared of it even from birth...never feared death... but heaven sounded better....answers to questions sounded great.....I was ready for hell when God ripped me from it kicking and screaming.....you see I thought hell would be easy until He showed how easy heaven is.
Torture is exciting for you? Interesting. I find torture terrifying myself, particularly the notion of torture that supposedly could never have an end due to "divine decree". I find that scary as hell (to use a common phrase). God ripped you from hell? Really? So you've been to hell and were able to be brought out of hell by God? Interesting. Was there literal fire there? Was your body charred? Heaven is easy? I have no idea what you mean by that. Apparently "getting there" isn't very easy (according to the ETists). I would describe heaven as being heavenly. I've "tasted" it, but can't say I've been fully caught up there yet.
Fear of Hell....I have never had any fear of hell....pain is normal for me....torture is exciting for me....hell sounds bad but I have never been scared of it even from birth...never feared death... but heaven sounded better....answers to questions sounded great.....I was ready for hell when God ripped me from it kicking and screaming.....you see I thought hell would be easy until He showed how easy heaven is.
Neither side really gets it, but Jesus does and anyone who choses to reject Him is of no more importance than the bug that hits a windsheild, the bird that falls from the sky, the flesh of this world. We are nothing more than instinct without Christ but with Christ we are alive even in death.
Whut???? Torture is exciting for you? I don't know what prompted this post Robin but it's a little bizarre. So you don't think anyone who rejects Christ is worth even the air we breathe? What's the matter with you?
Whut???? Torture is exciting for you? I don't know what prompted this post Robin but it's a little bizarre. So you don't think anyone who rejects Christ is worth even the air we breathe? What's the matter with you?
People reject the Scriptures because they do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. To these people the Bible is merely a work of man and so they dismiss what they don't like, but then they promote universalism using the very same Bible which according to them is a fallible book written by fallible men.
Thanks for the post. From your answers, I can tell that you've actually read the bible, and are not simply spouting speculative assertions based on a desire to continue in willful sin.
Your last paragraph says it all, and this is the primary reason for the creation of taylor made philosophies which change the truth of God into a lie.
I did want to add one thing. You'd mentioned that the slightest sin would make us worthy of eternal torment. I wanted to offer, in clarification, that God actually tells the readers of the bible why unbelievers will be worthy of judgment.
Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there is no sacrifice for sins left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated, as an unholy thing, the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay and again, “The Lord will judge his people 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Thanks for the post. From your answers, I can tell that you've actually read the bible, and are not simply spouting speculative assertions based on a desire to continue in willful sin.
Please explain what you mean, here.
Last edited by herefornow; 01-10-2011 at 06:30 PM..
Hi everyone Whew don't know where to start. This thread is all over the board. I read the whole thing and it took a while. Let me say a few things.
First I know that the ET believed don't like the question about people who kill their children to save them from Hell. Remember the Texas Mother who killed her five children because trhe oldest was reaching maturity She wanted to save them from the possibility that they might end up in Hell so if she thought that if she killed them they went straight to Heaven. She was willing to die (Texas has the death penalty) and burn in Hell forever to save her children because that is what she had been told would happen to her. Kinda puts the statement of Jesus " that no greater Love has a man than he lay down his life for another" a pale second. She was willing to go past that and suffer burning for eternity. Now I know she will not and will be reconciled to God but people who believe in ET have a problem. If what they say is true she did risk more than death, we are all going to die. She risked and in her mind, was going to receive eternal burning in Hell for what she did. Was it insane, to us yes, but to her it made perfect sense, she saved her children. So if that was your main goal above all else it would make sense to you if you believed in ET.
Second I like the way Mike555 puts forth his side of the issues. Makes me think and cross check the verses to make sure what he says is right and if his interpretation is right. Most times I disagree with his interpretation.
The biggest mistake I think he and others make is (IMO) not understanding age-during vs eternal. The literal interpretations of the Bible use age-during because the word AION does not mean eternal even though King James translates it like that.
Yes not everyone will rule with Christ in the " Kingdom of God " but that kingdom will end and everything will be turned over to the Father and even the Son shall be subject to Him so God the Father will be all in all. That mean ALL will be reconciled to him like it says in Colossians and Corinthians.
Third I think Mike kinda backed himself in a corner. He rightfully says that God knows who will reject Jesus and who will accept Jesus. He also says that God knows every choice we will make, also true. So if he knows the choice we will make we could make no other choice or he would be wrong. So that is the only choice we could make and there goes free will, out the window. Free will only works if we could make any choice we want but we can't. God has already seen the end before the beginning meaning every choice is set in stone and can not be changed by our supposed free will.
You don't understand the doctrine of divine decrees. In eternity past God in His omniscience knew all things, both the reality and the potential. What is and what might have been. God knew every thought, decision, and action that His creatures would make. He knew the ramifications of those decisions and actions. He also knew what the ramifications would have been if any decision other than the decision that was made had been made. Therefore, God, knowing what actually would become reality, as opposed to what might have been, decreed that what each of His creatures would actually decide would certainly occur.
The divine decrees - actually one big decree do not cause anyone to make a certain choice. The divine decrees simply make certain that what man and angelic free will would decide would certainly happen.
Had you made a different decision with regard to some particular thing, then God would have included that other decision in His divine decree instead of the decision which you did make.
God's sovereignty and His omniscience do not negate man's free will. God's omniscience simply took cognizance of whatever decision you make and His divine decree in eternity past makes certain that that volitional decision becomes a reality.
God didn't make you decide anything. He knew what you would decide and enabled it to occur by entering that decision into His divine decrees. He left out of His divine decrees the other decisions that you might have made but chose not to. Therefore the choice that you make is certain from eternity past to become reality, whereas the decisions you did not make remain only a potential.
God's sovereignty gave man free will and His divine decrees made man's free will decisions a certainty.
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The last thing I would like to say is that sin is not passed on from Adam to us.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12
Death was passed on to us not sin. We sin because we have a carnal heart and mind, which we are born with.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Romans 8:20
God does these things for a reason. He had a Savior in place before the world was even created. He knew exactly and in fact planned all that would happen. YOU CAN'T SURPRISE GOD. He knows what he is doing
Man is born spiritually dead because God imputed Adam's original sin to the genetically acquired old sin nature. A baby is born spiritually dead long before he is able to commit a personal sin.
When Adam sinned, he acquired a propensity to sin - an old sin nature, which the Bible calls 'the old man' and 'the flesh'. The reason that Jesus had to come into the world by a virgin birth is because the sin nature is passed down through the male.
When a baby is born God imputes Adam's original sin to the genetically acquired sin nature. This results in immediate spiritual death - separation from God.
God did not wait around for each person to commit a personal sin before condemning him. He imputed Adam's original sin to the sin nature and condemned each person at the moment of physical birth.
Our personal sins were set aside until Jesus came into the world and God the Father imputed our personal sins to Jesus who was judged for them.
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Torture is exciting for you? I don't know what prompted this post Robin but it's a little bizarre. So you don't think anyone who rejects Christ is worth even the air we breathe? What's the matter with you?
