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Ok then I don't understand your original argument which I summarized in my first post and I thought you accepted as a correct understanding of the argument you were making. I thought you were saying that since Christ paid in full for the sins of the elect that any punishment or correction of the elect would invalidate Christ having paid the debt in full.
"if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well."
So my answer to your question "...why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting..." is the same as your answer. For their good and Gods glory, God chastises and sourges all Sons He receives.
Yes Christ paid in full the sins of the elect and yes any punishment or correction IN THE AFTERLIFE will take away full power of the atonement.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-17-2009 at 07:34 AM..
and these all things (ta panta) is what will be reconciled to God according to Col. 1:20, the elect are not "the whole", God did not only create the elect but "the whole" and "the whole" will be reconciled to God, according Col. 1:20, people living under everlasting torture can hardly be reconciled with God.
Sorry but you are going from verses excluding many verses dealing with the elect. This is not about hell but limited atonement, that Jesus came to save many and not all
Fundy: You were going to explain to us the difference between "only" & "especially. "
Especially=
Only=
"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers [of those who believe). Command this and teach this."
You will find this little verse in 1 Tim. 4:10.
Again: what does "only" and "especially" mean in Koine and in English?
I see no scripture saying, it will happen in the next life.
Let's review the scope of the confession & the worship of all beings in the heavens, the earth, & the underworld, resounding to the Father's great glory shall we?
Phil. 2:10,11
"It is because of this also that God has so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other name, In order that in the Name of Jesus (so that in adoration of the Name of Jesus) every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
kavmptw = bow=
Used of worshippers.
To bow one's self.
Confess= ejxomologevw
Confess/ profess.
A. To acknowledge openly and joyfully.
B. To celebrate/ to give praise to.
Exomologeo Rooted In oJmologevw oJmologevw=
To confess/ declare.
A. To profess/ declare openly and freely.
B. To profess one's self the worshipper of one.
C. To praise and celebrate.
In the Name/ Within the Name -Jonathan Mitchell Greek N.T.-
9. For this reason, God also lifts Him up above (highly exalts Him; elevates Him over) and by grace gives to Him (graces on Him) the Name -- the one over and above every name! --
10. to the end that within The Name: Jesus! (or: in the name of {or: belonging to} Jesus), EVERY KNEE -- of the men upon the heavens (of those belonging to the super-heavens) and of the men existing upon the earth and of the men dwelling down under the ground (or: pertaining to subterranean ones) -- may bend (should bow) in worship or prayer,
11. and EVERY TONGUE may speak out the same thing (should openly agree, confess and acclaim) that Jesus Christ Lord <= Yahweh?> -- into glory of Father God (or: unto Father God's reputation)!
I wholeheartedly agree with you, there are verses that contradict what I believe as well as there are verses that contradict what you believe. I believe God intended that not to mention in our finite, fallen state we are not able to comprehend such depth in the bible...
Yes, I believe God intended it to be difficult as well for His glory. So that we could not rely on our own power or man's wisdom but on Jesus Christ to open our eys to the scriptures. The disciples were with Christ for three years and still understood little until He opened their eyes to the scriptures after His death & resurrection. The book is sealed and Christ opens the seals, not our wisdom.
Quote:
BUT the bible to makes more sense from a Calvinist point of view than any other not to mention, there are less contradictions as opposed to universalism, arminianism and all the other ism's.
The only contradiction I know of towards what I believe rests on the translation of aionion and olam as "everlasting". If those are translated correct then CU can not be true. However, as I've pointed out, if those are translated correctly then Israel 61 and 58 say that Christ came to repair the "everlasting wastes" which are a consequence of God's vengeance against sin. And there are other scriptures that apply these supposed "everlasting" words to things of limited duration. So I don't need to be a greek or hebrew scholar to come to a conclusion about those words.
I am in agreement with you on free will and choice though some CU's will disagree with us. But imo the doctrine of limited atonement requires a severe straining of scripture. To me calvinism recognizes God's omnipotence to save sinners, but presupposes that God will not save all, and so it is forced to conclude limited atonement against the weight of scripture and God's character.
Let's review the scope of the confession & the worship of all beings in the heavens, the earth, & the underworld, resounding to the Father's great glory shall we?
I have that verse in my bible as well. Let me reword my post. "I see no scripture showing one can repent in the afterlife" and without repentance one can not be saved.
I have that verse in my bible as well. Let me reword my post. "I see no scripture showing one can repent in the afterlife" and without repentance one can not be saved.
Are these verses taking place in the afterlife?
Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Yes, I believe God intended it to be difficult as well for His glory. So that we could not rely on our own power or man's wisdom but on Jesus Christ to open our eys to the scriptures. The disciples were with Christ for three years and still understood little until He opened their eyes to the scriptures after His death & resurrection. The book is sealed and Christ opens the seals, not our wisdom.
Quote:
The only contradiction I know of towards what I believe rests on the translation of aionion and olam as "everlasting". If those are translated correct then CU can not be true. However, as I've pointed out, if those are translated correctly then Israel 61 and 58 say that Christ came to repair the "everlasting wastes" which are a consequence of God's vengeance against sin. And there are other scriptures that apply these supposed "everlasting" words to things of limited duration. So I don't need to be a greek or hebrew scholar to come to a conclusion about those words.
Well I believe in the depravity of man and the scripture repeats it. I do not know how one is saved unless one believes and how can one believe unless the God draws them? why doesn't everyone believe? which leads me to believe the Father does not draw everyone?
Quote:
I am in agreement with you on free will and choice though some CU's will disagree with us. But imo the doctrine of limited atonement requires a severe straining of scripture. To me calvinism recognizes God's omnipotence to save sinners, but presupposes that God will not save all, and so it is forced to conclude limited atonement against the weight of scripture and God's character.
Severe from you have been taught but Calvinism can only go from what they see in scripture and not what they want God to be. God does what He wants and it must give Him the glory, if choosing to save some or all gives Him the glory then who am I to question that. God takes no pleasure in punishing the wicked but that doesn't mean He saves everyone. The elect are sinners as well, they have done nothing to be special, they are special because God chose them, He saved those sinners.
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The question is a simple one: tell us what "especially" and "only" mean in Koine Greek & the largest language in the world, English.
