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Okay then that brings into question the mentally handicapped, the mentally insane, people who never heard of Christ, especially the heathen nations before the time of Christ ... etc ... The fundamental doctrinal slope begins to get really slippery from here on ...
You guys are getting a tad ridiculous here. Just for the record I have a mentally challenged nephew and he knows who Jesus is, and if you knew your Bible as you claim, you would know God has made a way for those who have never heard with understanding. And yes, it says that in the Bible, but since all you UR's do is argue I'll let you see if you can find it yourself.
Edited to add:You guys are forgetting one very important detail here. What goes to "heaven?" The body of a newborn baby or that baby's soul?
Last edited by mshipmate; 10-12-2009 at 02:24 PM..
There is really no debate on the issue of election. According to the scriptures, faith is by election, as well as unbelief. Romans chapter 5 clearly establishes this truth among many other passages throughout the bible.
So it boils down to 2 possible realities. And this is the real debate ...
1. God chose not to reveal himself to the vast majority of humanity and created/predestined them to be tortured for ever or annihilated.
2. God chose not to reveal himself to the vast majority of humanity and will eventually redeem even those that do no believe in Christ in the fullness of times through his fiery judgments.
We do know that God himself says he does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
So the argument that God glories in the death of the wicked is scripturally invalid. Where you go from here is a long and winding road, full of difficulties in unearthing the truth because of two thousand years of tradition and the various translations of the original texts of the new testament.
I made a mistake .. I should have said, Romans chapter 9 is clear on election. Please excuse the error.
No one can say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit . I have never heard a demon confess Jesus as Lord and neither have i ever heard an unbeliever confess it.
Come to think of it neither have i read of demons bowing the knee , just demons fleaing His presence . Geeze where do you come up with these myths.
You have never heard of a demon bowing there knee, then read your bible. There was a man who bowed before Jesus and the man had many demons in him. This shows you that demons can't even keep a man from bowing. The demons had to bow, just as the man had to bow.
I come up with these things in the bible that you twist to try to fit your belief.
Read Mark 5, you might learn something. Demons can't even stand in the sight of Jesus.
You quote the scripture every knee shall bow, but you don't even know what that means. So sad. Every knee shall bow, humans, demons, and satan will bow before Jesus.
Eze 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
You have never heard of a demon bowing there knee, then read your bible. There was a man who bowed before Jesus and the man had many demons in him. This shows you that demons can't even keep a man from bowing. The demons had to bow, just as the man had to bow.
I come up with these things in the bible that you twist to try to fit your belief.
Read Mark 5, you might learn something. Demons can't even stand in the sight of Jesus.
You quote the scripture every knee shall bow, but you don't even know what that means. So sad. Every knee shall bow human, and demons, and satan will bow before Jesus.
It was the man not the demon bowing , then the evil spirit legion spoke to Jesus asked Jesus not to torture him (He probably just got back from a fundamentist meeting lol) ,also demons cannot stand being in the presence of God.
So what do you fundamentalist really believe ? You speak out of both sides of your mouth.
Which one is it ?
1. God will not force anyone
2. God forces a confession out of us
lol
Well, I don't struggle with the verse because I simply take what the verse says.
We make mistakes when we say I think, instead of just taking the verse for what it says. You should never take away or add to a verse.
The verse is saying that Jesus will send those out of His side for He never knew them, because they practices lawlessness.
We have to take the verse for what it says, not for what we want it to say. Things would be much easier.
Yes, Jesus talked to tax collectors and sinners because He was sent to them to give them the Gospel. But He is clear that He will one day send those out of His sight.
I'm sorry if my use of my brain (thinking) that God gave me to use for that purpose (to think) is adding to or taking away from scripture or what I want it to say. I THINK that you also THINK or you wouldn't be able to say that "the verse is saying that Jesus will send those ...." ... This is you thinking it says that.
Anyway... we can see that it is a direct quote from Psalms. Did Jesus know scripture well enough to quote it? Do we have to take the meaning of his words from the text he quoted? YES! He quoted a verse about temporarily removing those who committed iniquity from sight.. not from the earth... from sight.
I said:"Truly though, there is no harm in believing that God set out to save the world and he did. Paul says that we should not sin so that grace will abound but that we can sin. He doesn't seem to think that sinning excludes us from salvation. I gather that it is because he knows that there is no sacrifice left.. that Jesus took away ALL sin by his blood shed on the cross..."
To which you responded with:
"I get what you are trying to say, but if that was the case, Jesus never would send those who He says He will send out of His sight."
Jesus putting iniquity-filled people out of his sight has nothing to do with the FACT that Jesus covered ALL sin by his blood. So there is no sin that grace will not cover. Sending someone out of your sight and saying you never knew them is not saying they will be burned forever in hellfire nor does it take away the sacrifice Jesus made for sin.
What you wrote.. you think but it is not what scripture says if you read the Psalm that was quoted.
Well, I don't struggle with the verse because I simply take what the verse says.
We make mistakes when we say I think, instead of just taking the verse for what it says. You should never take away or add to a verse.
The verse is saying that Jesus will send those out of His side for He never knew them, because they practices lawlessness.
We have to take the verse for what it says, not for what we want it to say. Things would be much easier.
Yes, Jesus talked to tax collectors and sinners because He was sent to them to give them the Gospel. But He is clear that He will one day send those out of His sight.
This is a typical statement of why believers are leaving the system in their droves.
I guess I am still new, but it appears that the debate of Universalism is always under way here?
Yes ... It is. It is in the opinion of those of us believe in UR that this is the next step of the Christian reformation.
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