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Old 12-10-2009, 07:27 AM
 
392 posts, read 307,604 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
Your message and comment has little power and is hard to believe because you have no literal scriptural references to back up your belief regarding the rapture. The one scripture that you did reference is out of context. Anyway, I am not convinced for a rapture or against one because personally I don't think it matters. We are supposed to be walking in LOVE period whether the rapture happens or not. As believers our race towards the finish line, our calling and our instruction is NOT to look for the rapture but to bring others to the saving knowledge of Christ. I believe that you guys are wasting a lot of time on what you ARE NOT supposed to be doing...GETTING DISTRACTED. Since nobody knows of the time or hour of Christ's coming why do we all get caught up with the subject? Just curious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620
Gideon said let's not forget Paul said, God will bring the dead back with him when he returns.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These are part of the armies that come back with Jesus.
Gidieon said.
What is your point because you make no sense at all. To say the timing of the rapture is irrelvevent is foolish. Christ, Paul, Mathew, Mark, Luke and many others tell us it is very important to know the timing and to let no one deceive us. It is a waste of time to be in a church that holds the wrong position concerning the timing of our Lord's return. Period.

Now if you want an expoistion on I Thes 4 here it is.


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Gideon said,
Now we can cover these two verses. Apparently either the church was inquisitive about the dead in Christ and what would happen to them when Jesus would return or Paul just wanted to inform us of what would happen. So the main emphasis is the dead in Christ returning with Christ when he comes back to earth. I would challenge anyone to show us a pre-tribulational rapture here. This is an impossible task, as it is not there, as the pre-tribulation camps vehemently claim it is. Now remember, there is a danger in claiming this error as seen in II Thes 2; it is dangerous to have pleasure in unrighteousness or in error concerning the second coming. Paul further tells us and comforts us to not have any concern for our dead loved ones in Christ. They are not as those that have no hope, as their hope is in Christ.

Verse 14 begins to bring all this together. Paul tells us, "Hey if you believe Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring back with Him. Notice Paul says nothing about taking them away, but rather he tells us God the Son will bring them back with Himself. Wither so ever Jesus goes they are with Him. As he returns to earth, in order to establish his Kingship he brings all the dead saints back with him, from Adam to the last Martyr in Revelation. We see that clearly in Revelation 11, 19, 20 etc. Yet pre-tribulationist claim these words bring with Him, mean Jesus is going to fly them away. That is very inaccurate as we will see.


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleeps in Jesus will God bring with him.

Notice the only ones Jesus brings anywhere are the dead not the living on earth. He brings them with himself from heaven so they can be resurrected from the dead. The word bring in the Greek is "ago"; it means to lead, carry, lead along, bring. So Jesus is bringing them not taking as pre-tribulationism claim falsely again. They further even claim he is bringing us all to heaven, the living saints on earth and the dead ones currently in Heaven. This is so inaccurate; it could not be more inaccurate.

Take note how Paul begins verse 14, with the death and resurrection of Christ. This is the pattern that the dead in Christ shall follow also. They return with Him, as he "Brings them with" in order for them to receive their dead bodies resurrected when Christ is glorified in His saints at his return. We will see that very clearly also.

Thus far Paul tells us not to worry about the dead in Christ; God, Christ will bring them with Him at his returns. We know since they come with Him they are in Heaven, and there is much scripture to back that. He reminds us of the power of the resurrection in Christ. We have also learned that pre-tribulationists misrepresent the word "bring" grossly, and present it in opposite fahion of its true meaning, with the word "'take away" instead, thus falsely claiming Jesus is to take them away to heaven. There is no taking anywhere in this chapter at all. Neither is there a secret hidden second coming of Jesus that occurs at the beginning of the Tribulation or anytime after the Ascention as they falsely proclaim loudly that Jesus could have returned anytime, unexpectedly after the Ascention. Now let's carry on to the next verses.

This we are telling you by God's word and authority, the living saints present on earth, remaining until Jesus returns, will not prevent the dead saints in any way. Remember Paul told us of the death and resurrection of Christ; now he brings it to their personal level. We see Jesus descends with the voice ofthe Archangel, a Loud Shout, and the Trumpet of God, the last trumpet of revelation as Paul has previously given us the remainder of the details in other verses as these. John, Jesus, and many others have also given more detail of this single event. Remember, God gives us different details of the same event throughout scripture, by other scriptures and varying personalities to shed all the details he wanted us to realize about a single event.

Notice Jesus is descending down to earth. We are caught up to meet him at His descent. The scriptures read the Lord shall descend. There is zero indication here that Jesus comes secretly, without notice to steal the church away to heaven, in order for them to escape persecution. There is zero detail given of any ascent as pretibulationism falsely claims there is. It is evident that He proceeds in a downward motion, with a shout, the voice ofthe archangel, and the last trumpet of Revelation. This all occurs at the end ofthe GT, not seven years earlier as pre-tribulationists falsely proclaim, loudly.


50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,

We see the same event in Revelation 11, 19, 20 etc.

HERE it is in Revelation 11 again

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time ofthe dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

15For this we say unto you by the word ofthe Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming ofthe Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice ofthe archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We will save verse 17 for last, as it is the best one that proves Jesus comes down to earth with the Greek word apentesis. I forgot to mention the word coming here is Parousia or arrival. So it is the same event we see in II Thes 1 and 2. We will see that very clearly in verse 15 the coming is "Parousia".

Now we can bring this section to a conclusion with verse 17. This is exactly the same event we see in Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, II Thes 2, Revelation 10, 11, 19, 1, 20 etc. All the accounts are given to shed various details of the same event. Notice II Thes 2 mentions our gathering together unto him at his coming, arrival or Parousia. We see the same event described in a like fashion in I Thes 4. The pre-tribulationists claim they are two separated events, taking place at least seven years apart. We see nothing in scripture to demonstrate both are separate events; scripture only proves them to be one. Not only does the terminology prove them to be one event but the words also disprove any secret or hidden coming, and the words disprove Christ taking the church away. Finally the words disprove we fly away anywhere. Verse 17 proves these facts even further. Notice we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, as he descends. The word meet, is apentesis; it is no coincidence that Paul used this word here. Paul added this concept with its historical meaning. What this word means is as a dignitary paid his official visit to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens going out to meet the dignitary at his parousia, and escorting him in the remaining part or final stage of his Journey was referred to as the apentesis. So as they saw the dignitary arriving at his parousia, they went out to meet him and greet him, then the citizens would proceed to escort him in to the city. The same word is used here. As Jesus descends, we meet or apentesis him in the air in order to escort him down to earth. This is precisely what is recorded by Paul in scripture. We clearly do not fly away as the pre-tribulation dogma has eroneously has claimed; we meet Him the in air, in order to continue His descent with Him down to earth. There is nothing in scripture or this passage to disprove what Paul has clearly stated.


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


NOW,how is that for explaining I Thes 4; hope you can grasp it.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 12-10-2009 at 07:57 AM..

 
Old 12-10-2009, 07:49 AM
 
12,232 posts, read 5,827,226 times
Reputation: 1919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I know exactly what you believe - it may be dispensational theology that is pretrib but to bad pretrib is not Biblical Theology.
The Bible proves you wrong. And I have proved you wrong.


Quote:
Where did I ever say the opposite of what you highlighted? There you go again making arguments where none exist patting yourself on the back as if you accomplished something.
If you are referring to what I highlighted in red, that was a direct answer to what you highlighted in red. If you are referring to the last paragraph higlighted in blue, that is for anyone who thinks that dispensations are man made.


Quote:
There are no stages to the first Resurrection - PLEASE. EISEGESIS.
Do you or do you not see the one thousand years between Rev. 20:4 and Rev. 20:5. It tells you plainly in verse 5 that ''the rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the thousand years were completed.'' And then it goes on to say that ''this is the first resurrection.'' Verse 5 speaks of the Millennial saints being resurrected at the end of the Millennium. This distinquishes it from verse 4 which is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs who are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation a thousand years prior to verse 5. Those are the third and forth STAGES of the first resurrection. To deny this when it is plainly presented is to be willfully ignorant

Quote:
You keep stating things without proving them from the WORD. I understand that you believe that two different dispensation do not run togehter. Your assumption is that they cannot overlap as one is fading in and the other is fading out or particularly at the end prior to the Millennium. This is exactly what happened at the first coming the two overlapped for a brief time.
There was no overlap between the dispensation of Israel and the dispensation of the church. On the day of Pentecost the age of Israel was put on hold and the Church age began (Acts 2:1). There was a break in period for the Jews to get accustomed to the new policies of the new dispensation of the church. But that break in period took place in the church age. That break in period was for the Jews benefit. When God terminates the church age, HE does not need a break in period. The church age is terminated with the rapture of the church and the age of Israel resumes.


Quote:
I already showed you your error on II Tim.4:1 and 8 - Christ judges the living and the dead at His appearing and kingdom. The appearing and kingdom are at the same time not 7 years apart. What don't you understand is the more important question. The same word (appearing) is used in 1:10 - not some hidden secret appearing but a visible one. It is used 6 times - all by Paul - and is visible, referring to the 1st coming, the 2nd coming, and the man of sin being revealed whom Christ will destroy by the manifestation (appearing) of His coming (parousia). So stop with your EISEGESIS.

You can state all your beliefs again if you like but that will not make it so.
The man of sin, the antichrist can not be revealed until the church is removed from the earth. When the church is removed, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is lifted, and the antichrist can then appear. And yes. When Christ returns, He will defeat the antichrist who will be cast into the lake of fire along with the false prophet.

The error is yours. I already showed you that 2 Tim 4:8 refers to the judgment seat of Christ which takes place in Heaven while the Tribulation is taking place on the earth. Both the return of Christ to the clouds to rapture the church and the return of Christ at the second advent, where He actually sets foot on the Mount of Olives are the 'appearing' of Christ.

One must be willfully ignorant of the truth in order to hold to a post Tribulation view.
 
Old 12-10-2009, 10:06 AM
 
12,232 posts, read 5,827,226 times
Reputation: 1919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said, wrong again, God administers His work to the Gentiles and Israel simultaneously. THere is no rapture; hence he works through both during the Great Tribulation. Despensationalism was a corruption created by Darby, used to place the church out of the picture during the tribulation.. It is you that does not understand Romans 11 and you are in darkness. The church is the new covenant and it continues for all eternity, there is no end to this church age as you suggest. Israel must come back to God by means of the church age, and not by sacrifices of animals, for one sacrifice has already been made, Christ Jesus.

The question should not be do I understand dispensationalism, but rather do you understand Romans 11? Of course we know the anwer is no; you do not understand this passage. As you do not understand John 14, Revelation 3:10, neither do you understand Romans 11 which clearly debunks Darby's heretical stance in dispensationalism. If you did understand R 11 you would not be asking such a silly question.

We have debunked all of you all's ficticious theories in every passage you have presented, with all the vain imaginations presented. Yet you stil can not see the light. Recall John 14, we proved the mansions on high as you thought were not mansions on high but rather a dwelling place God has for us in his kingdom, confirmed in fellowship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but the Comforter. Yet you still deny what is clearly written in God's words. You still think Jesus is going to fly you away to a mansion on High before the tribulation comes. I am amazed at the hardness you display towards God's words.


Now here is the proof; go to this link, click on the number above mansion, and whammo, you have its meaning from the Greek. NOT rocket science. I would advise you to read the entire passage and learn how not to take a verse out of context. Context is king.
John 14 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)#
You have been shown in no uncertain terms what dispensations are and what they entail. You have been given the definition, you have been shown some of the different characteristics that distinquish Israel from the church. And you just close your eyes and deny it. You make the absurd claim that dispensations were the invention of Darby when the distinction between the Gentiles, Israel, and the church is as plain as the nose on your face. It was made clear to you that dispensations involve a change in the administration of God's plan.

Eph. 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10) with a view to an administration-OIKONOMIAN-DISPENSATION suitable to the fullness of times...

Eph. 3:1-11 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles 2) if indeed you have heard of the stewardship--OIKONOMIAN-administration- DISPENSATION of God's grace which was givien to me for you; 3) that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery (the church), as I wrote before in brief. 4) And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5) WHICH IN OTHER GENERATIONS WAS NOT MADE KNOWN TO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT HAS NOW BEEN REVEALED (the church age was a mystery to the O.T. believers. It was unknown to them) to His holy apostles and prophets n the Spirit; 6) to be specific, that the Geniles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7) of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8) To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9) and to bring to light what is the ADMINISTRATION of the mystery which for AGES has been HIDDEN in God, who created all things; 10) in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11) This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The church age did not begin until the day of Pentecost in about 30 or 33 A.D.( Acts 2:1) It is separate and distinct from Israel. The dispensation of Israel was put on hold--interrupted, for the formation of the body of Christ--the church. And the church age must be terminated with the rapture before the last seven years remaining to Israel can resume as the Tribulation.

One has to be dumb as a stump to deny the plain declaration of the dispensations of the Bible. You have just been shown two verses that declare the stewardship, the administration, the dispensation of the church. And yet you would against all reason, maintain that dispensations were invented by Darby?

Israel does not come back to God by means of the church. Replacement theology is a heresy. The Bible makes it clear that Israels full and final restoration to the land is fullfilled at the second advent of Christ. At the beginning of the Millennium, Israel is permanently regathered by Christ and the unconditional eternal covenants that God made with Israel, the Abrahamic, the Davidic, Palestinian, and New Covenant to Israel are fulfilled. (Ezekiel 39:25-29; Amos 9:15; Jeremiah 23:5-8) The New covenant to Israel is promised in Jeremiah 31:27-40 and is fulfilled in the Millennium. Not during the church age.

Learn about the New Covenant to Israel at this link. It explains it very well.

Israel and New Covenant

The recipients of the Abrahamic, Palestinian, and New Covenant to Israel are Abraham and his descendants. The land is promised to Israel. The church will inhabit the New Jerusalem, which is the eternal city which comes down from Heaven, where it is now located.

Regarding your statement about John 14:1-3, it has nothing to do with the Millennial kingdom. It has already been explained that the dwelling places are in Heaven. The passage itself makes it clear that it is Heaven that is being referred to. The dwelling places in Heaven are both 1) where the believer goes when he dies, and 2) where the church goes when it is raptured.The dwelling places are in the New Jerusalem which is currently in Heaven, and which will in the future descend from Heaven.

Last edited by Mike555; 12-10-2009 at 11:19 AM..
 
Old 12-10-2009, 11:29 AM
 
3,947 posts, read 1,779,386 times
Reputation: 1490
Shiloh's responses are in red:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Bible proves you wrong. And I have proved you wrong.

Nice Try - WRONG AGAIN

If you are referring to what I highlighted in red, that was a direct answer to what you highlighted in red. If you are referring to the last paragraph higlighted in blue, that is for anyone who thinks that dispensations are man made.

I do not know what you are referring to - your highlight was in Black.

Do you or do you not see the one thousand years between Rev. 20:4 and Rev. 20:5. It tells you plainly in verse 5 that ''the rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the thousand years were completed.'' And then it goes on to say that ''this is the first resurrection.'' Verse 5 speaks of the Millennial saints being resurrected at the end of the Millennium. This distinquishes it from verse 4 which is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints and Tribulational martyrs who are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation a thousand years prior to verse 5. Those are the third and forth STAGES of the first resurrection. To deny this when it is plainly presented is to be willfully ignorant

Yes, I see that there is a 1000 years between verse 4 and 5 - you though seem to have a problem with it.

Seriously, do you have a problem exegeting a passage apart from quoting your Scofield Bible? The phrase 'the rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL the thousand years were completed.' is a comment by the author - John - showing a contrast between the 1st resurrection which is at the begining of the Millennium and the last resurrection which is at the end. It is a paraphrase before he goes on to explain the resurrection at the begining as 'the first resurrection.'

If there is only the '1st Resurrection' with 4 stages - what is the second resurrection? Why qualify the term 'resurrection' with the adjective 'first' if every resurrection happens in 4 stages under the banner of 'THE FIRST RESURRECTION'?

Rev20:6 states that those of the first resurrection will not taste the 2nd death. At the end of the Millennium is the 2nd death v.14. Notice also, that verse 6 says that those who paretake of the first resurrection ruled and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Questions: If the resurrection at the end of the Millennium is part of the 1st resurrection (your 4th stage) how do they get to rule and reign with Christ since the Millennium is past. Also, how does those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium taste the second death since those who are part of the 1st resurrection do not taste the second death?


The Bible states:


THAT THERE IS A RESURRECTION OF THE JUST AND THE UNJUST.

1) Christ is the Firstfruits - The Type and Substance
2) The First Resurrection - The JUST of all ages up to the Second coming
3) The Last Resurrection - At the End of the Millennnium.

It does not state that there is:

The First Resurrection

1) First stage - Jesus
2) Second stage - The Rapture
3) Third stage - Begining of Millennium
4) Fourth stage - End of Millennium

That is a bunch of Contrived Delusions.

There was no overlap between the dispensation of Israel and the dispensation of the church. On the day of Pentecost the age of Israel was put on hold and the Church age began (Acts 2:1). There was a break in period for the Jews to get accustomed to the new policies of the new dispensation of the church. But that break in period took place in the church age. That break in period was for the Jews benefit. When God terminates the church age, HE does not need a break in period. The church age is terminated with the rapture of the church and the age of Israel resumes.

That is funny Israel still existed, the disciples kept the feasts, they went to the Temple, ect, ect. All after Pentecost.

The man of sin, the antichrist can not be revealed until the church is removed from the earth. When the church is removed, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is lifted, and the antichrist can then appear. And yes. When Christ returns, He will defeat the antichrist who will be cast into the lake of fire along with the false prophet.

You are so deluded - the Man of Sin is revealed when??? He is reavealed when he '...opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.' This happens in the middle of the tribulation not the begining. So according to your logic you are Mid-Trib.

The error is yours. I already showed you that 2 Tim 4:8 refers to the judgment seat of Christ which takes place in Heaven while the Tribulation is taking place on the earth. Both the return of Christ to the clouds to rapture the church and the return of Christ at the second advent, where He actually sets foot on the Mount of Olives are the 'appearing' of Christ.

I just showed you that Paul recieved his crown at the second coming and kingdom of Christ - you are still deluded.

One must be willfully ignorant of the truth in order to hold to a post Tribulation view.
You made an error -change 'post' to 'pre' and then you will see.

Last edited by Shiloh1; 12-10-2009 at 12:59 PM..
 
Old 12-10-2009, 01:23 PM
 
3,947 posts, read 1,779,386 times
Reputation: 1490
Also, note I Cor.15:23-26: It is speaking of the Resurrection of the dead particularly the dead who are Christ - 'so in Christ all will be made alive.' v.22. This is why Paul does not deal with the resurrection at the end of the Millennium.

Now follow Paul;

Here is the order of operations:

v.23 - 'But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterwards those who are Christ at His coming [the 2nd Coming].'

Note there is only two resurrections here, Christ's, and then those of the 1st resurrection. This cannot be the 'rapture-coming' because of verses 24-26

v.24 - 'Then the end, when Christ delievers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts and end to all rule and authority and power.'

The 'kingdom' here is talking about the present spiritual kingdom. This is the begining of the Millennial Reign of Christ.

v.25 - 'For He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet.'

This is the Millennial Reign.

v.26 -'The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.'

This is at the end of the Millennium. See Rev.20:14 where Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.

Does anyone see 4 stages of the 1st Resurrection here or anywhere for that matter?
 
Old 12-10-2009, 01:30 PM
 
Location: It's my island!
53 posts, read 3,147 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Hey John, I'm closer to you, you can certainly have mines.......for I won't be needing it, nor my house, and land, furniture, bank account, hey have it all, all the stuff!
Show your faith, give it away today.
 
Old 12-10-2009, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,392,677 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Also, note I Cor.15:23-26: It is speaking of the Resurrection of the dead particularly the dead who are Christ - 'so in Christ all will be made alive.' v.22. This is why Paul does not deal with the resurrection at the end of the Millennium.

Now follow Paul;

Here is the order of operations:

v.23 - 'But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterwards those who are Christ at His coming [the 2nd Coming].'

Note there is only two resurrections here, Christ's, and then those of the 1st resurrection. This cannot be the 'rapture-coming' because of verses 24-26

v.24 - 'Then the end, when Christ delievers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts and end to all rule and authority and power.'

The 'kingdom' here is talking about the present spiritual kingdom. This is the begining of the Millennial Reign of Christ.

v.25 - 'For He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet.'

This is the Millennial Reign.

v.26 -'The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.'

This is at the end of the Millennium. See Rev.20:14 where Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.

Does anyone see 4 stages of the 1st Resurrection here or anywhere for that matter?
No there is Christ, 1st resurrection, Last resurrection. That is it. That I see.
 
Old 12-10-2009, 03:55 PM
 
392 posts, read 307,604 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You have been shown in no uncertain terms what dispensations are and what they entail. You have been given the definition, you have been shown some of the different characteristics that distinquish Israel from the church. And you just close your eyes and deny it. You make the absurd claim that dispensations were the invention of Darby when the distinction between the Gentiles, Israel, and the church is as plain as the nose on your face. It was made clear to you that dispensations involve a change in the administration of God's plan.

Eph. 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10) with a view to an administration-OIKONOMIAN-DISPENSATION suitable to the fullness of times...

Eph. 3:1-11 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles 2) if indeed you have heard of the stewardship--OIKONOMIAN-administration- DISPENSATION of God's grace which was givien to me for you; 3) that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery (the church), as I wrote before in brief. 4) And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5) WHICH IN OTHER GENERATIONS WAS NOT MADE KNOWN TO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT HAS NOW BEEN REVEALED (the church age was a mystery to the O.T. believers. It was unknown to them) to His holy apostles and prophets n the Spirit; 6) to be specific, that the Geniles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7) of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8) To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9) and to bring to light what is the ADMINISTRATION of the mystery which for AGES has been HIDDEN in God, who created all things; 10) in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11) This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The church age did not begin until the day of Pentecost in about 30 or 33 A.D.( Acts 2:1) It is separate and distinct from Israel. The dispensation of Israel was put on hold--interrupted, for the formation of the body of Christ--the church. And the church age must be terminated with the rapture before the last seven years remaining to Israel can resume as the Tribulation.

One has to be dumb as a stump to deny the plain declaration of the dispensations of the Bible. You have just been shown two verses that declare the stewardship, the administration, the dispensation of the church. And yet you would against all reason, maintain that dispensations were invented by Darby?

Israel does not come back to God by means of the church. Replacement theology is a heresy. The Bible makes it clear that Israels full and final restoration to the land is fullfilled at the second advent of Christ. At the beginning of the Millennium, Israel is permanently regathered by Christ and the unconditional eternal covenants that God made with Israel, the Abrahamic, the Davidic, Palestinian, and New Covenant to Israel are fulfilled. (Ezekiel 39:25-29; Amos 9:15; Jeremiah 23:5-8) The New covenant to Israel is promised in Jeremiah 31:27-40 and is fulfilled in the Millennium. Not during the church age.

Learn about the New Covenant to Israel at this link. It explains it very well.

Israel and New Covenant

The recipients of the Abrahamic, Palestinian, and New Covenant to Israel are Abraham and his descendants. The land is promised to Israel. The church will inhabit the New Jerusalem, which is the eternal city which comes down from Heaven, where it is now located.

Regarding your statement about John 14:1-3, it has nothing to do with the Millennial kingdom. It has already been explained that the dwelling places are in Heaven. The passage itself makes it clear that it is Heaven that is being referred to. The dwelling places in Heaven are both 1) where the believer goes when he dies, and 2) where the church goes when it is raptured.The dwelling places are in the New Jerusalem which is currently in Heaven, and which will in the future descend from Heaven.
Gideon said,

According to dispensationalism, when is the Day of the Lord? Would you say it is at the Revelation or at your imaginable pre-tribulation rapture? BTW, we have proven pre-tribulationism and your dispensationalism very inaccurate and heretical in nature.
 
Old 12-10-2009, 04:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you cannot follow my answers, then try harder. I have addressed what you wrote.

Nothing that I wrote are assumptions. This is all basic dispensational theology.


Yes, Christ's resurrection is a part of the first resurrection precisely because He IS the first fruits. His resurrection was necessary for the resurrection of all believers. And the church is next in line to be resurrected. The church is royal family of God. And as such, the church is next in line to be resurrected because rank has it's privileges. The church gets resurrected before any other group of believers and that means before the Tribulation.

Only church age believers are in Christ. No believer of any other dispensation was ever entered into union with Christ. The Old Testament saints and tribulational martyrs that are a part of the third stage of the first resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4 are a part of the first resurrection, but they are not in Christ. They belong to the dispensation of Israel. Being in Christ is one of the distinctions of the church age believer.

And what part of two dispensations not running together do you not understand? The church does not go through the Tribulation. It is in Heaven and believers are being evaluated at the bema seat of Christ for the purpose of rewards for spiritual production while on the earth.

Gideon said bingo, wrong again. Christ is the resurrection and the life, but he is not part of the first resurrection that takes place at the end of the GT, 2000 plus years later; BTW, there is no other first resurrection. Now that can only mean that the rapture takes place at the end of the GT, on the last day. You are so wrong on this I won't bother posting on the rest.
 
Old 12-10-2009, 04:14 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
1,315 posts, read 903,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No there is Christ, 1st resurrection, Last resurrection. That is it. That I see.
Matthew 13:33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Three harvests, but the first one hints at a sitting down and a meal served: hence the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The firstfruits... the first inheritance as vessels unto honour in God's House. That is the first harvest.

Those afterwards as they that are Christ's at his coming which is at the end of the great tribulation. That is the second harvest.

Then the end of the milleniel reign of Christ as the third harvest.

Three harvest makes up the whole of the kingdom of God.

Luke 12: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

That is what I see by the grace of God as I lean on my Good Shepherd to have me ready as a vessel unto honour in God's House.

Colossians 1: 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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