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Putin proposed 7-point plan to resolve the situation in the south-east of Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are retreating massively. I think that soon there will be interesting developments.
Today, Obama said that Russia should forget about the lands that were lost in the 19th century. But in the 19th century Russia was losing only Alaska. It is good that Mr. Obama remembers this. Russia will think about Alaska and possibly agree with Mr. Obama.
The RIA Novosti accepted these pictures for what they were; after all Stenin was a war correspondent.
So all this Stenin's "collaboration" in "torture" and "beating" of captured Ukrainian soldiers is just that - a hysteria. If Ukrainian correspondents would be standing by during the torture of DNR soldiers (and it's a known fact that some of them were tortured and sometimes - to death,) then yes, I'd consider them accessory to a crime. If they'd go on a battle field, taking pictures of the dead, or taking pictures of the captured soldiers in distress - no, I wouldn't consider it a crime. After all, they are war correspondents and that's what war is all about.
Well, obviously you are applying a double standard. Or our ideas of what torture/mistreatment of soldiers is are vastly different.
Putin proposed 7-point plan to resolve the situation in the south-east of Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are retreating massively. I think that soon there will be interesting developments.
I doubt that Ukraine will accept it. They would have to retreat more than 350km and the DNR/Russia proved that they can't be trusted. Would be an easy gain of territory for the rebels.
The Nuland leak didn't prove that the US are responsible for the coup. They discussed what would be best for the US after Yanukovych. Important difference.
This is a continuation of the discussion in this thread, which was closed to keep all Ukraine crisis discussion in the correct thread.
A transcript of the leaked call in question:
Pyatt: I think we're in play. The Klitschko [Vitaly Klitschko, one of three main opposition leaders] piece is obviously the complicated electron here. Especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister and you've seen some of my notes on the troubles in the marriage right now so we're trying to get a read really fast on where he is on this stuff. But I think your argument to him, which you'll need to make, I think that's the next phone call you want to set up, is exactly the one you made to Yats [Arseniy Yatseniuk, another opposition leader]. And I'm glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario. And I'm very glad that he said what he said in response.
Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.
Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok [Oleh Tyahnybok, the other opposition leader] and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what [President Viktor] Yanukovych is calculating on all this.
Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.
Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?
Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?
Pyatt: No. I think... I mean that's what he proposed but I think, just knowing the dynamic that's been with them where Klitschko has been the top dog, he's going to take a while to show up for whatever meeting they've got and he's probably talking to his guys at this point, so I think you reaching out directly to him helps with the personality management among the three and it gives you also a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn't like it.
Nuland: OK, good. I'm happy. Why don't you reach out to him and see if he wants to talk before or after.
Pyatt: OK, will do. Thanks.
Reading this, it's pretty clear that Nuland and Pyatt are planning actively for a political takeover in Ukraine, rather than merely reflecting upon which candidates would be the best for the USA.
Well, obviously you are applying a double standard. Or our ideas of what torture/mistreatment of soldiers is are vastly different.
^
This.
Don't forget that I am familiar with Russian (make it Ukrainian) culture as well, because the two are very similar.
You can say about Russians that their "bark is worse than their bite."
It's a macho culture, a warrior culture if you wish. It's a given that once in the army they'll be "ruffed up," and I expect the POWs would get a punch or two from their captors. ( Don't think for a moment that Russians don't expect the same kind of treatment from Ukrainians when captured and then some more.)
I don't see anything unusual in captured being sent to dig the graves for their comrades - after all the captors are already angered enough the bloody battle and all the people THEY've lost.
When they want to show their merciful side - they do it differently; now I've noticed while watching the video that the captors are well-aware that this young Ukrainian is seriously wounded, and while interrogating him - their interrogation seems really useless, including the questions, so apparently they are trying to keep the soldier alert and alive; at certain point they are saying to him "don't float" - as in "don't die," and then they sent him to nurses, who are all soothing love and attention - it's WOMEN'S part you see to fill in. The guy in charge keeps on cussing behind the scene, referring to a soldier as a "young sucker," but make no mistake, he is well-aware that the soldier is in good hands by now.
Not that all Russians are the same, but I can see very well the dynamics of what was happening in this particular case, because that's the case where Stenin has got his accusations from.
Now "torture" for me would mean precisely that - the pulling fingernails with pliers, or burining body with hot iron, or water-boarding. Then I believe the correspondent ( from either side) witnessing it would be an accessory to a crime. But I don't believe that a professional like Stenin would stand by anything like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis
"The Nuland leak didn't prove that the US are responsible for the coup. They discussed what would be best for the US after Yanukovych. Important difference."
By proof if you mean absolute 100% indubitable evidence then your argument is irrational.
Let's take an example: Someone is overheard one day planning to rob the local bank. He's overheard talking about how he'll do it, what tools he's going to use and his getaway plan in some amount of detail. Further paperwork evidence comes to light that this individual had been showing interest in the bank for months, getting to know staff, duty rotas, patrol routes and communications.
The next day, the bank is found emptied of its coffers, with tool marks and tire tracks in the exact place consistent with the getaway plan. You don't need indubitable proof to secure a conviction.
Great video!
They speak both Russian and Ukrainian interchangeably - and that's how it supposed to be; she is saying that DNR fighters and Ukrainian troops are trying to find common language and in certain instances they are far more successful than politicians.
They are questioning the number of killed/lost in action on both sides, they are saying that their car has been shelled by the bullets from their own Ukrainian troops when they've arrived in Donetsk.
They are talking "enough of bloodshed," and Ruslana ( a popular singer in Ukraine) is saying that she understands Zakcharchenko from DNR, his message, much better when he speaks addressing the public, than Poroshenko.
Way to go dear Ukrainians, get rid of nationalist scum.
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Ukraine has NO future
