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Old 11-06-2019, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Russia
1,348 posts, read 625,309 times
Reputation: 688

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
The fact that the president is being impeached for delaying security assistance to Ukraine would counter your argument.
Once again you confuse warm with soft. It's clear to even a fool that Trump is being impeached for hitting on Biden for his corruption dealings in Ukraine.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
10,060 posts, read 12,810,783 times
Reputation: 7168
I think if the Energizer Bunny started reading this thread when it began, he would have keeled over long ago.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:48 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,858,538 times
Reputation: 6690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Have many eastern Ukrainians migrated to Poland?
There are no statistics but many of them in Poland speak Russian and that wasn't the case a few years ago...

There are statistics showing the population of western ukraine is stable in the past 5 years but eastern ukraine has dropped by millions so....
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Old 11-07-2019, 01:15 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,858,538 times
Reputation: 6690
I see I brought out the Russians with my statement on Ukraine's importance. It hits a nerve to know that Ukraine is a more important partner for the US than Russia is.

And I quote the likely next president, Biden on Ukraine:
"First, I would make Ukraine a U.S. foreign policy priority. On the military side, I would provide more U.S. security assistance — including weapons — to strengthen Ukraine’s ability to defend itself."
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:06 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
I see I brought out the Russians with my statement on Ukraine's importance. It hits a nerve to know that Ukraine is a more important partner for the US than Russia is.

And I quote the likely next president, Biden on Ukraine:
"First, I would make Ukraine a U.S. foreign policy priority. On the military side, I would provide more U.S. security assistance — including weapons — to strengthen Ukraine’s ability to defend itself."

"Weapons" and "security assistance" are nonsense under the circumstances.
What Ukraine really needs is money; billions and billions of dollars to support it, in order to bring people's living standards to a point, when pro-American government can feel itself secure.
Currently it does not and it won't ( with the kind of right-wing reforms that US/AID/IMF are pushing upon Ukraine.)
You need to remember that Ukraine is the left-minded culture, where "the economic success" is not measured by the few filthy rich and homeless on the streets; it's not measured by people forced to work abroad, while sending money home, as Mexicans/Tadjics do.

"Economic success" ( the way Ukrainians understand it) is the "European way" - when the social security net/medical care/wealth are more or less evenly distributed within the society.

And that's not what American Democrats had in mind for that country, with all their "economic reforms."
That's what they envision for DOMESTIC policies in the US, in order to have support/voters THERE.
That's what they promote AT HOME, in ORIGINALLY RIGHT-WING COUNTRY.

As for Ukraine - there they'd like to supply the weapons first of all, to make sure that this *country* would fight Russia till the last Ukrainian.
Verily I'm telling you - US Dem. Party is the party of war, as unexpected as it sounds.

And that's why Dems are ready to jump on Trump's throat, because he is not willing to play along.

Trump wants first of all to keep the US as a bastion of capitalism and right-wing ideas ( as it always was,) and he has little interest in throwing money at some obscure "Ukraine," to keep the conflict with Russia going.

( Not to mention the trouble that "country" brought personally for him back in 2016.)



P.S. Of course with all the controversies and little material help from its "Western partners," Ukraine is turning into a pressure-cooker, with Zelensky phenomenon being compared more and more often lately with short-lived Yushenko's success and his "Orange revolution."

Ukrainian political observers see a lot of commonalities there, and they are probably right.

Last edited by erasure; 11-07-2019 at 10:16 PM..
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:32 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,858,538 times
Reputation: 6690
Okay you believe market liberalization is the equivalent of right wing. That's a political and economic argument, probably better suited to another forum.

What Ukraine needs is rule of law to destroy corruption, but to do that, it takes reforms and breaking up some government control of the private sector. People there use government connections to steer some economic benefits their way to the determent of the nation. This is what you call right wing IMF enslaving of Ukrainians. Perhaps many of them share this view and that's how people exploit this ignorance in that part of the world to continue the system as it was (same in Russia).

What they don't need is oligarchs peddling lies to a gullible Trump for him to help them stop the reforms by kicking out our people trying to break the old system.

They also don't need money without the conditions of reform otherwise it will stay a broken corrupt system which benefits nobody but the oligarchs. The only difference between Russia and Ukraine is Russia has more natural resources to sell to cover some of the theft taking place, although its questionable how many Russians are still okay with this.

Putin, his allies in Russia and Ukraine all want to derail reform in Ukraine as this threatens their way of life: stealing from the state. No doubt Zelensky must be stopped because if he agrees to the IMF demands and opens up the land market and liberalize state run businesses, it might be too late to put that genie back in the bottle.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:46 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
Okay you believe market liberalization is the equivalent of right wing. That's a political and economic argument, probably better suited to another forum.

That's not what "I believe" - that's the ABCs of politics and economy.


Quote:
What Ukraine needs is rule of law to destroy corruption, but to do that, it takes reforms and breaking up some government control of the private sector. People there use government connections to steer some economic benefits their way to the determent of the nation.
That's the usual lip service.
No corruption can be destroyed over there, without the ability to control the flow of money out of the country. This is the main source of corruption. But IMF wouldn't touch that one for obvious reasons, and so the rest of the "fight with corruption" is total BS.



Quote:
This is what you call right wing IMF enslaving of Ukrainians.
Yes.


Quote:
Perhaps many of them share this view and that's how people exploit this ignorance in that part of the world to continue the system as it was (same in Russia).
That's not "ignorance," and the source of corruption in Russia is the same.

Americans/IMF were trying to pull *the fast one* over there back in the nineties, in the same manner, but it backfired big time. Turning Ukraine in anti-Russian project is yet another attempt to take revanche for the failed goals, and I think that this latest attempt is not going to end up well too.



Quote:
What they don't need is oligarchs peddling lies to a gullible Trump for him to help them stop the reforms by kicking out our people trying to break the old system.
Trump is not all that "gullible" as you are trying to imagine him.
In fact I came across an old article from the Russian newspaper recently, written by someone who dealt with him personally ( just a small episode,) and it confirmed my opinion of him, that he is very intuitive person.


Quote:
They also don't need money without the conditions of reform otherwise it will stay a broken corrupt system which benefits nobody but the oligarchs.
Yeah-yeah-yeah..
Ad naseum.


Quote:
The only difference between Russia and Ukraine is Russia has more natural resources to sell to cover some of the theft taking place, although its questionable how many Russians are still okay with this.
No, "Russia proper" is far more powerful, poised and dangerous than "Russia minor" ( i.e. Ukraine) ever will be for a number of reasons.




Quote:
Putin, his allies in Russia and Ukraine all want to derail reform in Ukraine as this threatens their way of life: stealing from the state. No doubt Zelensky must be stopped because if he agrees to the IMF demands and opens up the land market and liberalize state run businesses, it might be too late to put that genie back in the bottle.
I don't think Russians are interested in "stopping" Zelensky.

They are aware by now that he is yet another Western puppet, but a very weak one.

Last edited by erasure; 11-08-2019 at 07:04 PM..
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:22 AM
 
3,216 posts, read 2,386,009 times
Reputation: 1387
Recently there was news about Ukrainian guest workers here in Estonia. It was mentioned in the news that unskilled Ukrainian workers are predominantly from the eastern Ukrainian oblasts, while skilled workers come from western Ukraine, that is that "Bandera's" Ukraine. Estonian employers like the Ukrainian workforce because Ukrainians are undemanding (even more than estonian own workforce) and ready to work with low wages, on weekends, without labor protective equipment and so on. Some of them work under a complicated legal scheme to avoid paying taxes - they are officially employed in Poland, but here they are like on a 'temporary business trip'.
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Old 11-09-2019, 08:16 AM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anhityk View Post
Recently there was news about Ukrainian guest workers here in Estonia. It was mentioned in the news that unskilled Ukrainian workers are predominantly from the eastern Ukrainian oblasts, while skilled workers come from western Ukraine, that is that "Bandera's" Ukraine. Estonian employers like the Ukrainian workforce because Ukrainians are undemanding (even more than estonian own workforce) and ready to work with low wages, on weekends, without labor protective equipment and so on. Some of them work under a complicated legal scheme to avoid paying taxes - they are officially employed in Poland, but here they are like on a 'temporary business trip'.

Most likely. Because the skilled workers from Eastern Ukraine are moving to Russia.
Since the language is the same, with their engineering diplomas they can get the qualified jobs.
Not sure what "skilled workers" from Western Ukraine are doing in Poland or Estonia.
But overall - yeah...
Ukraine is losing people fast. And that's the conditions under which they are forced to work in the coveted "paradise of the E.U," in order to send money home. (And these money sent home is a big chunk of their GDP.)
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Europe
4,692 posts, read 1,165,624 times
Reputation: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Have many eastern Ukrainians migrated to Poland?
1,27 millions according of researching by mobile phones system language
Quote:
W Polsce przebywa obecnie 1,27 mln Ukraińców. Nie są to szacunki przygotowane na podstawie pozwoleń na pracę, pobytów czasowych, wiz czy rejestracji w ZUS. To dane, które mamy dzięki smartfonom.
Quote:
There are currently 1.27 million Ukrainians in Poland. These estimates are not based on work permits, temporary stays, visas or registration with ZUS. This is the data we have thanks to smartphones.
Wyborcza.pl
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