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Old 01-11-2011, 06:00 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,279 posts, read 20,021,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
By means of the Common Grace Ministry of God the Holy Spirit at the point of Gospel hearing.



This is how man comes to faith.

Romans 10:17 'So faith comes from hearing (the Gospel message) and hearing by the word of Christ.'

God calls man through the Gospel.

2 Thess 2:14 ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.'




Faith preceeds salvation.

The very purpose of the gospel message is so that the spiritually dead unbeliever can receive the message by which he can make a decision to place his faith in Chirst of not.

As I have already said, it is by means of the COMMON GRACE MINISTRY OF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT, that the spiritually dead unbeliever may understand the spiritual phenomenon which is the Gospel. This is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is for believers only, this is a specialized ministry of the Holy Spirit for making the gospel message understandable to the unbeliever.

Now pay attention to these passages.

Eph 1:13 'In Him, you also, after listening to the gospel of your salvation---having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Gal 3:2 'This is the only thing I want to find out from you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, OR BY HEARING WITH FAITH?

John 20:31 'but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


And no, God's kingdom is NOT inside us. There is a spiritual sense in which the church-age believer is in the Kingdom, but that is completely different from the erronious belief that the kingdom is in us. It is not!!!

Jesus told the unbelieving Pharisees in Luke 17:20-21 that the kingdom of God was in their midst. He was telling them that since He is the king of the kingdom, that the kingdom was in their midst.

Now, because there were some different elements in your post, I answered it. But if you are going to keep harping on your idea that man can't make a choice, I refer readers back to posts #163, 167, 171, 174, and 247.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.1 Cor 2:14

There is nothing a man without the spirit can do, whether it be see,hear,believe or understand, it takes something super natural on God's behalf.

So this common grace theory is a joke, the natural man would never understand , see or hear the truth, if it was staring you in the face.

You need to refer back to Brian's post for a better understanding of faith and justification.

 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:01 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,648 times
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''the kingdom of God is inside you and all around you'',what jesus is talkinjg about is the Paramatma.

how come you'l take all the verses that point to eternal torment(,although the word eternal was never in the original scriptures)literally,but you wont take this one,one that Jesus Himself said,,so it is choice in what you want to beleive,eh?????
 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:08 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,759,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
''the kingdom of God is inside you and all around you'',what jesus is talkinjg about is the Paramatma.

how come you'l take all the verses that point to eternal torment(,although the word eternal was never in the original scriptures)literally,but you wont take this one,one that Jesus Himself said,,so it is choice in what you want to beleive,eh?????
Paramatma??? I gotta look that one up!! You'll have to explain that one dobeable because it doesn't exist!!
 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:19 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,207,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.1 Cor 2:14

There is nothing a man without the spirit can do, whether it be see,hear,believe or understand, it takes something super natural on God's behalf.

So this common grace theory is a joke, the natural man would never understand , see or hear the truth, if it was staring you in the face.

You need to refer back to Brian's post for a better understanding of faith and justification.
That chapter in Corinthians, among many other places in the scriptures, really shows the doctrine of free will to be the fraud that it is.

Men are bound to sin and death, our natural state is one of corruption due to the corruption in our flesh. The same corruption subjects the mind, so that the natural man cannot even fathom the things of the spirit of God. The things of the spirit of God are foolishness to the natural unregenerate person who has not yet been quickened by the spirit of God. A natural man cannot make a free will decision to accept or believe anything that is of the spirit of God ... Period.

Mike would have to show through the scriptures that the spirit of God quickens every person who will ever live and delivers to them the gospel message so that they fully understand it spiritually before they die, that is to say everyone who will ever live before and after the times of Christ, in order to make his doctrine even remotely plausible.
 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:25 PM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,683,103 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
now answer this one for me,which i think youve been avoiding from the start of this thread,WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO NEVER HEAR OF CHRIST,OR THOSE BORN INTO DIFFENERNT CULTURES????is it that God just dosent care for these or do they get special treatment???and if they get some special pass into heaven for not knowing then it would have been better for everyone not to know,why would God give one person a better chance than another,if he's meant to be fair and just then everyone should get the same chance in life,which puts into perspective why people suffer,i know the answer and although it dosent come from the bible(although their are hints of it there)it makes perfect sense,this thread is not about that so i wont go off topic here.
This has been addressed already. Refer to the following.

The Orthodox View of Hell is correct in that Hell is a place of Conscious Everlasting Torment Posts # 76, 135, and 160.

Where does Faith come from? Post #78




Quote:
if this is the case then how come a child WILL enter the kingdom,according to you philosophy,but a man who is really,really good cant and for what reason,FOR BEING BORN???????
Philosophy has nothing to do with it. You already know what I've said concerning those who die before reaching the point of God consciousness.

As for people who are good, God always, ALWAYS rejects human good. Believers are qualified to spend eternity in the presence of God because they have been imputed with God's eternal life and with God's perfect absolute righteousness. But those who die without Christ have only their own relative human righteousness to stand on and it is on that basis that they are judged and sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).

Human righteousness has no compatability with perfect divine righteousness. God compares man's good deeds which are produced from his relative righteousness with used menstrual rags. (Isa 64:6).

Titus 3:5 declares the following. 'He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to HIs mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.'

Quote:
mike555 im sure your a good geezer underneath it all,but its clear that you have been fooled into beleiving something,whether its from the bible or not,that just dosent make any sense at all,God is greater than ALL that is and He is PERFECT in every way,therefore he would have created a perfect sytem of life,which He has mind you,you just need get over the old beleifs of man...........
The deception has not come upon me. In rejecting the Bible, the written word of God, you reject the absolute norm and standard of truth and do not know God or anything about His plan.


Quote:
...........ya see if i were able to create a better system of life then that would make me better than God,and thats immpossible,when a politition goes to vote,they tell the people what their intentions are for making life better for everyone,and then people choose according to what they know/think/feel is better for everyone,not just a few,sadly this system dosent realy work because politition can be liars and we have a world where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer,but you get my point,if i could come up with a system that will benefit everyone even the real bad sinners,bye putting laws like karma into place(well that wasnt my idea that was God's)and making it in such a way that in time although it could be eons and eons and eons,but one day,some day- ALL will benefit from life and share gods Love for eternity with everyone in existence,then that would be much better than what your tryin to spit out now wouldnt it,who would vote for eternal hell for everyone,only those who were fooled to beleive that without this docrtine,you'll have to go there,and be sure of tormant,using fear instead of honesty,commpassion,care,tolerance,patience,nobili ty,and the complete opposite of fear which is LOVE.

if God wants us all to be saved then THAT WILL happen,no-one can go against god WILL,He is completley independant,dosent need anything from anyone,but He wants,and what is it he wants,our LOVE and DEVOTION,and that WILL happen too in time for every living entity.why???because HIS WILL,will be done!!!!
You reject what the Bible says and you have the right to do so. You will answer to God for it.

God cannot save anyone apart from the condition of the Gospel, which is to trust Jesus Christ for salvation. He cannot compromise any facet of His perfect character to save man apart from the requirements that His holiness demands. All who die without Christ are eternally lost and will be forever separated from God.

God's will falls under three categories. 1) His directive will. 2) His overruling will. And 3) His permissive will. Man's free will comes under God's permissive will and can certainly say no to the gospel.

Your beliefs are contrary to God's revealed word, and I suspect that for now at least, they will remain in contradiction. But again, that is your right and you will have to take it up with God.
 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:30 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Paramatma??? I gotta look that one up!! You'll have to explain that one dobeable because it doesn't exist!!
the ord dosent exist in the bible,but what it is is a localised aspect of god that exist inthe hearts(soul)of every living entity,and inside each and every atom,,paramatma means supersoul,
 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:37 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,279 posts, read 20,021,700 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
That chapter in Corinthians, among many other places in the scriptures, really shows the doctrine of free will to be the fraud that it is.

Men are bound to sin and death, our natural state is one of corruption due to the corruption in our flesh. The same corruption subjects the mind, so that the natural man cannot even fathom the things of the spirit of God. The things of the spirit of God are foolishness to the natural unregenerate person who has not yet been quickened by the spirit of God. A natural man cannot make a free will decision to accept or believe anything that is of the spirit of God ... Period.

Mike would have to show through the scriptures that the spirit of God quickens every person who will ever live and delivers to them the gospel message so that they fully understand it spiritually before they die, that is to say everyone who will ever live before and after the times of Christ, in order to make his doctrine even remotely plausible.
Yes indeed Ironmaw. The free will gospel is such a bunch of codswallop it's untrue. It's full of holes,contradictions, pride and keeps those who believe it double minded, they chose Jesus, Jesus chose them, they found Jesus, Jesus found them, they sought Jesus, Jesus sought them,they called Jesus,Jesus called them and so on.

Christian..... there is joy and peace in the knowledge of,he sought,chose you and found you, that he sat your feet upon the rock and made your footsteps firm, drop the idea you chose Jesus,acknowledge he chose you, i guarantee,you will see the scriptures in a way you have never seen before, your faith will increase, and you will come into a greater understanding of his love for you.

Last edited by pcamps; 01-11-2011 at 07:15 PM..
 
Old 01-11-2011, 06:38 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,648 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This has been addressed already. Refer to the following.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1163756-orthodox-view-hell-correct-hell-place.html Posts # 76, 135, and 160.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1164977-where-does-faith-come.html Post #78






Philosophy has nothing to do with it. You already know what I've said concerning those who die before reaching the point of God consciousness.

As for people who are good, God always, ALWAYS rejects human good. Believers are qualified to spend eternity in the presence of God because they have been imputed with God's eternal life and with God's perfect absolute righteousness. But those who die without Christ have only their own relative human righteousness to stand on and it is on that basis that they are judged and sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).

Human righteousness has no compatability with perfect divine righteousness. God compares man's good deeds which are produced from his relative righteousness with used menstrual rags. (Isa 64:6).

Titus 3:5 declares the following. 'He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to HIs mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.'



The deception has not come upon me. In rejecting the Bible, the written word of God, you reject the absolute norm and standard of truth and do not know God or anything about His plan.




You reject what the Bible says and you have the right to do so. You will answer to God for it.

God cannot save anyone apart from the condition of the Gospel, which is to trust Jesus Christ for salvation. He cannot compromise any facet of His perfect character to save man apart from the requirements that His holiness demands. All who die without Christ are eternally lost and will be forever separated from God.

God's will falls under three categories. 1) His directive will. 2) His overruling will. And 3) His permissive will. Man's free will comes under God's permissive will and can certainly say no to the gospel.

Your beliefs are contrary to God's revealed word, and I suspect that for now at least, they will remain in contradiction. But again, that is your right and you will have to take it up with God.
that whole speach is just a cop-out,because every heart felt person knows that what your saying goes against LOVE.and makes no-sense whatsoever,i dont care whats written in a book,or should i say books,if the bible preached destroy your enemys,(which it dosent ,it teaches the opposite,because the truth is that we are all apart of God,and its only out of ignorance that we fail to see what we realy are,souls and not bodies)but anyway would you make your duty to destroy all your enemys????,or would you follow your heart?

and why do you keep saying''God CANT save anyone,except this that and the other,well if your God is so limited then i suggest you look again,their is no lim its to god,non whatsoever,including his LOVE.
 
Old 01-11-2011, 07:01 PM
 
20,323 posts, read 15,683,103 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobeable View Post
''the kingdom of God is inside you and all around you'',what jesus is talkinjg about is the Paramatma.

how come you'l take all the verses that point to eternal torment(,although the word eternal was never in the original scriptures)literally,but you wont take this one,one that Jesus Himself said,,so it is choice in what you want to beleive,eh?????
No, it is not. Jesus' kingdom is not of this world.

John 18:36 'Jesus answered , ''My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servents would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.



When He returns, He will set up His Millennial kingdom at that time. For the present, there is a spiritual sense in which the believer is in the kingdom, but the kingdom is not within him. Phil 3:20 'For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly await for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ...'

Also for the present this is the devils world:

The world is Satan's domain: Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8

Satan is the ruler of this world -kosmou: John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11

Satan is the prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2

Satan influences rulers: 1 Chronicles 21:1-5

Satan is the father of unbelievers: John 8:44
 
Old 01-11-2011, 07:11 PM
 
1,838 posts, read 1,933,648 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it is not. Jesus' kingdom is not of this world.

John 18:36 'Jesus answered , ''My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servents would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.



When He returns, He will set up His Millennial kingdom at that time. For the present, there is a spiritual sense in which the believer is in the kingdom, but the kingdom is not within him. Phil 3:20 'For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly await for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ...'

Also for the present this is the devils world:

The world is Satan's domain: Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8

Satan is the ruler of this world -kosmou: John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11

Satan is the prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2

Satan influences rulers: 1 Chronicles 21:1-5

Satan is the father of unbelievers: John 8:44
i never said His kingdom is in this world,but His energy is,thats what's holding all the matter together,spirit and matter co-exist in this world,just because you cant see it dosent mean it dont exist.

now Jesus said''the kingdom of God'',but didnt He have to use simple terma because people didnt really understand Him back then.thats why He used parables and stuff.
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