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Actually, there is nothing about a choice being spoken of. Jesus is telling us that those who are not born of the Spirit:
1. Are unwilling to come to Him;
2. They do not receive Him;
3. They reject Him.
Paul tells us the exact same thing here:
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
And why is this so? Paul tells us why:
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Rom 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
A "free will choice for Jesus" by the natural man is not a scriptural doctrine. The whole free will concept is foreign to what Jesus taught and what Paul instructed the Church concerning. This is why the natural man must be born of the Spirit. Not only to enter the Kingdom, but to also see how this spiritual birth comes about:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I think before discussing hell or convenants or anything else, we need to clarify exactly what Love is!! What's the use of talking about something like "hell" that we haven't seen, if we can't even agree on what Love is, which we can know and feel here and now??
Blessings,
brian
since im not any kind of scholar of the bible,ive based just about all my posts on this thread on what Love is/should be,and then try understand through common sense and logic what/how love behaves,in other words,their is a certain charachteristic of LOVE,and thats what God is-the purest of the purest of Love,so when people start declaring that gods goin to burn ya,e have to question that through logic and reason and most immportantly understanding WHAT God is.
since im not any kind of scholar of the bible,ive based just about all my posts on this thread on what Love is/should be,and then try understand through common sense and logic what/how love behaves,in other words,their is a certain charachteristic of LOVE,and thats what God is-the purest of the purest of Love,so when people start declaring that gods goin to burn ya,e have to question that through logic and reason and most immportantly understanding WHAT God is.
And just think, if someone has never even tasted of God's Love for them!! The scriptures that talk of God's immense, unfathomable Love will simply go over their heads!
Paul...Acts 10 doesn't support your case. Cornelius was a man of God, a Gentile, and the purpose of this event, and what to learn from it, is that the focused subject, Peter, who was a Jew, believed not that Gentiles should partake, and God was merely letting him know they were. Verse 35 again, dismantles UR But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him....God only accepts those who revere Him....and again in verse 43 ....To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....I just don't see what you people see...the scriptures refute every leg you stand on....at every corner...the Holy Spirit descends on those who believe...those who confess.....God drawing someone is not the Holy Spirit in them...it is God drawing them...God cannot dwell with sin....and the Holy Spirit is Him, the liaison of him that He dwells within us only through Christ, by faith and belief in that which He rose from the dead, and who the Law, the prophets, and the patriarchs pointed to. Finally, pas, the same word used in verse 43 for whosoever, does not carry a universal theme as to the entire group at the square. It carries a universal theme onto those who heard the word, and inevitably they heard them speak with tongues with Peter, and feared/revered God....The Holy Ghost descended on those who heard the word...
We believe that the scriptures DO teach what we see, but that you are unable to see it because you are still spiritually naive and carnally minded.
We believe that in your heart you still believe you are better than others who do not have what you have been given, and that you take credit for the work which God has done in your life and that you pretend that you are the one who is responsible for making a free will choice to believe when in fact it was God who put into your heart to believe if in fact you do truly believe.
You wrote ...
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Verse 35 again, dismantles UR But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him....God only accepts those who revere Him....and again in verse 43 ....To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....I just don't see what you people see...the scriptures refute every leg you stand on....at every corner...
Verse 36 does nothing to dismantle what we believe the scripture teach concerning the salvation of all people. Because we understand that when the judgments of God are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. We know that every knee will bow and tongue confess of every family of every nation and all which God has made shall worship him and glorify him, just as the scriptures teach.
We believe you are the one who, believing on the teachings of the traditions of men which were never even taught by anyone in the early church to begin with, the teachings of "covenant creationism" which is based on another tradition which was never taught in the first 3 centuries, i.e. "full preterism".
Not only does history agree with us in that it shows that the majority of Greek speaking Christians in the first few centuries of the Christian era believed in universal salvation, it also shows your teachings to be a modern fabrication of the traditions of men who have sought to twist the scriptures into the frame work of their own understanding, because they do not have the faith to believe in a literal resurrection or in the literal return of Christ as all the early Christians and the church fathers did.
Some of us believe that it is you who has no leg to stand on, and that history itself dismantles the fraud you perpetrate as being the "true gospel".
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-12-2011 at 03:33 PM..
The idea of "common grace" of the Spirit is also unscriptural.
To the contrary. When the gospel is given to the spiritualy dead unbeliever, the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the issue pertaining to salvation clear. The Holy Spirit convicts the world, in other words, unbelievers of sin, righteousness and judgment.
John 16:8 'And He when He comes will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment. 9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 11] and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
The conviction of the Holy Spirit (which can be resisted) concerning sin pertains to the sin of unbelief.
The Holy Spirit makes the unbeliever aware of a righteousness outside of himself and his own righteousness. He testifies of Jesus' finished work. He speaks of judgement. Satan has been judged and defeated in the work of the cross.
This is the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at gospel hearing.
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"Coming to Jesus" does not mean walking up to Him and having a conversation. The Pharisees did this on a daily basis as did also the priests serving in the temple. The natural man will always remain in unbelief (remain faithless) until brought to life by the Spirit. Gospel faith has nothing to do with a "personal choice".
As a result of the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit at the point of Gospel hearing, the hearer either comes to Christ by placing his trust -faith, in Christ for salvation, or he rejects Christ.
John 5:40 'and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life...43] ''I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me...''
John 12:48 'He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Acts 7:51 ''You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit...''
The fact that those to whom Stephen was speaking were resisting the Holy Spirit means that the Holy Spirit was giving witness to them. And they refused to listen.
John chapter 5 is about the various witnesses pointing to Christ. The witness of John, of works, of God the Father, and of the Scriptures. God draws and calls unregenerate man though the Gospel (John 6:44-45; 2 Thess 2:14).
Every time that the gospel message is given, an invitation is being extended to the hearer to come to Christ.
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Actually, the bible says the exact opposite. Unless born of the Spirit first, the natural man is unable to believe.
This is in direct contradiction of the scriptures. It is as I explained above, the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit which makes the issue clear to the unbeliever.
Ephesians 1:13 'In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...
As the above passage makes clear, believing the gospel message results in salvation, of which being sealed with the Holy Spirit is a part.
Acts 16:30 'and after he brought them out, he said, ''Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'' 31] And they said, ''Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved...
As Acts 16:31 shows, salvation is the result of belief in Christ. You are saved because you belief in Christ. You are NOT saved first and then believe later.
John 8:24 states the following. ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''
Now according to you, a person must be saved first before they can believe. But Jesus says that if you do not believe, you will die in your sins.
According to you, a person can be saved without believing. But Jesus says that if you do not believe, you are not saved.
There are numerous passages all declaring that faith preceeds salvation.
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[/b]That natural nature of the flesh must be changed first.
Man retaiins his old sin nature after salvation. He also becomes a new creation at the point of salvation.
2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.
The old things passing away does not mean that the old sin nature is gone. Believers still sin after salvation.
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The Spirit of Jesus makes the Gospel known to the natural man by bringing the natural man to spiritual life first. That is the only way the natural mind can see and hear the Gospel spiritually. This work of the Spirit includes infants as well as those with mental disabilities that have no ability whatsoever to "make a choice". And everyone is born of the Spirit in the exact same way:
Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
The scripture tells us exactly what happens and how it happens. And I would suggest that you LET IT SINK IN!!!...lol...before making erroneous commentary about the things you know nothing of.
The gospel is for the purpose of bringing man to belief in Christ so that he may be saved. The gospel leads (if it does) to faith in Christ which results in salvation.
The common grace ministry has been explained above.
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Here is what Paul tells us:
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth--the good news of your salvation--in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.
They believed what they heard. There was no "decision" made concerning to believe or not believe. The verbs "heard" (ακουσαντες), "believed" (πιστευσαντες), and "sealed" (εσφραγισθητε) are all used in the aorist tense. The Gospel message believed was the seal of the Spirit, the new birth.
Yes, he call's spiritually those born of the Spirit. The word "hearing" is not hearing with ears of the flesh, but means rather to hear "a report". The Greek word used for "hearing" is better translated as:
Rom 10:17 so then the faith is by a report, and the report through a saying of God,
When the Gospel (the report) is spiritually heard by someone who is born of the Spirit, faith is the fruit, or result, of the Spirit's work upon that heart. Go back and read Gal 5:22.
Also, the term "faith" has the definite article in Rom 10:17. It is not a common faith, but rather "the faith". Gospel faith, faith of the Spirit. It is the faith that is being spoken of. Not man's faith of the flesh.
The natural man will always say no to the Gospel. I've already listed the scriptures that prove this point and that you still refuse to believe. And, that the natural man will remain in this unbelief until born of the Spirit. Jesus has told us that the natural man (the flesh) can not, and will not, profit anything:
Every man before salvation is a 'natural man.' At the point of Gospel hearing, the Holy Spirit in His common grace ministry will convict of sin, righteousness and judgment. This conviction by the Holy Spirit can be resisted or it can be accepted by the hearer of the Gospel.
Just as Pistis - faith refers to personal saving faith, it also refers to the gospel.
Compare Gal 1:11 with 1:23.
Gal 1:11 'For I would have you know, brethen, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.'
Gal 1:23 ''He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.
Here faith - pistis, refers to the gospel.
So does Hebews 12:2 'fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith.'' Not our faith, but the gospel. Jesus is the author and finisher of the gospel.
Personal saving faith results from believing the gospel message concerning Christ. Rejection of the gospel message leaves man under condemnation.
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Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
And, Jesus told us that a person must be born from above to "see" the Kingdom. Actually, it's to "see" the Kingdom that is already within!
The kingdom is not within man. I have already covered this in an earlier post.
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There is also no "decision" to be made in order to be born from above. It comes about by the Spirit of Christ, not be the will of man. It is wholly the work of Jesus' Spirit, alone.
Yes there is. The gospel message, and the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit can be resisted.
The greatest decision in life that anyone will ever have is to choose for or against Christ.
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Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
Joh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
The word "behoveth" or perhaps "must" (in the KJV), is translated from the Greek word δεῖ and means:
Is necessary, has need of, is inevitable in the nature of things.
The word δεῖ is being used by Jesus in the present tense, indicative mood. The term "born" is used in the aorist tense. IOW, Nicodimus must be born again in the present tense (now!) to understand what Jesus was telling him.
I won't waste further time on you. But I will leave you a taste of your own medicine...LOL
Your beliefs are Calvinistic and are contrary to the Scriptures.
You would do well to absorb what the passages in this post are saying and come to an understanding of the truth. But that is your choice.
Bless you my friend. Good news is not about our choices but rather about what Christ has accomplished for us. That is the good news of the Gospel. Mike just is unable to believe it. That is why he continues to refer to the purpose of his gospel being an angelic conflict. In his mind this conflict decides the outcome of sinners, rather than the blood of Christ. Sounds like a cult belief if there ever was one. However, Paul speaks of the Gospel as being a revelation made known to those who believe:
1Co 15:1 And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,
The Gospel is a proclamation, not an offer. It is believed on, not decided upon. It is a proclamation of Good news concerning Christ's death and resurrection for mankind, not a story of angelic conflict.
All of these terms "make known", "good news" and "proclaim" are really not understood by Mike.
For readers who do not know or understand what the angelic conflict (the spiritual warfare spoken about in Ephesians 6:10-20 and other passages in the Bible) is about, and are interested, I direct you to my thread on the subject. This is all very basic to understanding why man and human history exists, and why man has free will, and why it is about making decisions both with reqard to the gospel and to your spiritual life after salvation.
For readers who do not know or understand what the angelic conflict (the spiritual warfare spoken about in Ephesians 6:10-20 and other passages in the Bible) is about, and are interested, I direct you to my thread on the subject. This is all very basic to understanding why man and human history exists, and why man has free will, and why it is about making decisions both with reqard to the gospel and to your spiritual life after salvation.
For readers who do not know or understand what the angelic conflict (the spiritual warfare spoken about in Ephesians 6:10-20 and other passages in the Bible) is about, and are interested, I direct you to my thread on the subject. This is all very basic to understanding why man and human history exists, and why man has free will, and why it is about making decisions both with reqard to the gospel and to your spiritual life after salvation.
Spiritual warfare happens between our ears and nowhere else.
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled 2 Cor 10
Do you believe by spiritual warfare you can bring somebody else's thoughts to the obedience of Christ ?. If you believe spiritual warfare is anywhere but in the mind, i think you do.
And just think, if someone has never even tasted of God's Love for them!! The scriptures that talk of God's immense, unfathomable Love will simply go over their heads!
Blessings,
Brian
this apparently and sadly is true
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What's the use of talking about something like "hell" that we haven't seen, if we can't even agree on what Love is, which we can know and feel here and now??
And just think, if someone has never even tasted of God's Love for them!! The scriptures that talk of God's immense, unfathomable Love will simply go over their heads!
The
