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And they qualify after they have been brought to their knees by judgement.
You think that repentance is limited to this lifetime only - what scripture says that? The richman and lazarus parable?
Believing means you are saved from wrath - if you don't believe and repent of your wicked deeds you suffer wrath.
Read the Psalm that SvenM posted
Psalm 107:10-21 (Rotherham's Emphasized)
The dwellers in darkness and death-shade, bound with oppression and iron; Because they had rebelled against the sayings of GOD, - and, the counsel of the Most High, they had spurned; And he bowed down, with labour, their heart, They staggered, with no one to help, Then made they outcry to Yahweh in their peril, Out of their distresses, he saved them; He brought them forth out of darkness and death-shade, and, their fetters, he tare off. Let them give thanks to Yahweh for his lovingkindness, and for his wonderful dealings with the sons of men! For he brake in pieces the doors of bronze, And, the bars of iron, he hewed asunder. The perverse, by reason of their transgression, and on account of their iniquities, are afflicted; All manner of food, their soul abhorreth, and so they draw near unto the gates of death, Then make they outcry to Yahweh in their peril, and, out of their distresses, he saveth them. He sendeth his word, and healeth them, and delivereth them from their graves. Let them give thanks to Yahweh for his lovingkindness, and for his wonderful dealings with the sons of men! Yea let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and recount his works with a shout.
Telling the world that everyone will be reconciled is twisting Scripture and the character of God.
Everything= ta pavnte= the all
Quote:
For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven.
Telling the world that everyone will be reconciled is twisting Scripture and the character of God.
God is the one who has told us this, ILNC. Colossians 1- see Birdy's post straight above. It was His (God's) good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, and the mystery revealed to the church is that all are to be reunited in Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1) Do you believe that God's character is one that sees beginning to end and brings the majority into existence knowing that they would reject Him having no hope for salvation, deliberately birthing, creating them for everlasting hell? Then God does send them there. He already knows the choices that they will make. Eternal hell is not supported in the scriptures. It only maligns the character of God who is said to be love, just, wise, merciful. He is able to accomplish whatever He purposes to do. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-16-2009 at 03:30 PM..
God is not going to send anyone to hell, they will be sending themselves, because they made the wrong choice and rejected Him. Telling the world that everyone will be reconciled is twisting Scripture and the character of God.
2 Corinthians 5
18and all things [are] of the God who has reconciled us to himself by [Jesus] Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation: Yes he as
20We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as [it were] beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God.
In other words go and tell them God as reconciled you back to Him.
It's that simple a blind man on a galloping horse can see it .
Believing it is another thing .
Just like Abraham who had to believe the exact opposite to what is carnal mind may have been telling Him about God's promise.
My apologies to all for going off subject , even though it really is part of it
But the question remains, if you believe in unlimited atonement how can you believe in any existence of hell whether it is eternal or not?
There is a hole in your arguement.
Let me summarize my understanding of your argument:
Whomever Christ died for, their debt was paid in full.
If anyone is punished (or chastised, you don't see the diff) then their debt was not paid in full.
Since "hell" is in scripture, we know some are paying a price whether it's temporary or everlasting.
Therefore Christ did not die for all.
The hole I see in your argument is this. Yes, Christ died for His elect, and bore the full penalty of their sins. Yet they are still subject to chastisement and were at one time children of wrath like everyone else.
Chastisement Of God's Elect
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
God Saves Children Of Wrath
Epheians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
So Christ's death & resurrection and paying for Paul's sins did not keep Paul from being a child of wrath for a period of time. Nor does it keep a Son of God from being chastised. Therefore if you find someone who is being chastised or punished for their sins or who is a child of wrath, you can not conclude God is not going to save them. That includes those who are receiving many or few stripes in "hell".
PS
1. Hell is not mentioned more than heaven in scriptures or in Christ's teachings.
2. Chastisement = Punishment intended to correct. Punishment can be chastisement, but eternal punishment is not chastisement.
God Bless
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 06-16-2009 at 02:40 PM..
God is the one who has told us this, ILNC. Colossians 1- see Birdy's post straight above. It was His (God's) good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, and the mystery revealed to the church is that all are to be reunited in Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1) Do you believe that God's character is one that sees beginning to end and brings the majority into existence knowing that they would reject Him having no hope for salvation, deliberately birthing, creating them for everlasting hell? Then God does send them there. He already knows the choices that they will make. Eternal hell is not supported in the scriptures. It only maligns the character of God who is said to be love, just, wise, merciful. He is able to accomplish whatever He purposes to do. God bless.
No God did not tell us that all will be with Him in eternity. I understand how this hard for some people to understand, but it is clearly taught all through Scripture. Yes God knows when a person is born if they will be with Him or separated from Him in eternity, it is a choice we all must make.
No God did not tell us that all will be with Him in eternity. I understand how this hard for some people to understand, but it is clearly taught all through Scripture. Yes God knows when a person is born if they will be with Him or separated from Him in eternity, it is a choice we all must make.
Where is it clearly taught, ILNC?
If God knows when a person is born if they will be with Him or separated from Him in eternity, then how is the choice that they make going to make a difference to where they will spend eternity according to what you believe? God knows anyway when and even before they are born and if He knows that the majority will be in hell for all of eternity when they are born, who is sending them there? God is,because He brings them into existence, knowing what is going to happen. The scriptures teach, ILNC, the reuniting of all in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1) and a deliverance of the creation of God (Romans 8) God bless.
Also if you really believe in limited atonement you must be believe that God chose you regardless of whether you believe or not , because if you think God had a plan for salvation and then sat back to see who would believe that actually contradicts your Calvinistic doctrine and belittles the Almighty to a God of chance.
So with that in mind you must also believe that God is a respecter of persons.
"all this hinges on and stems from the doctrine of total depravity, and a person who understood human depravity wouldn't raise that objection, because he would understand that there are no depraved people who really want to know God. The thing is they hate God. Romans 8 Verses 7 and 8 says they can't -- they're not capable of loving God or pleasing Him or even obeying Him. They cannot do it. It's impossible for them, because their hearts are so fixed against Him. So there's no possibility that anyone would ever say well, I wish I could know God, but He didn't choose me. And on the other hand, it's also not true that anyone who would resist salvation would be dragged kicking and screaming against his will into it, because what God does in His regenerating work is give us a new heart, a heart of love for Him. And so he changes that animosity that we are born with towards God into a love for Him. That's what we mean by irresistible grace. That's another -- that's the eye in the tulip. And it's not irresistible in the sense that God forces his grace upon us. I use this illustration. It's irresistible in the same sense that my wife is irresistible to me. I find her charms, her beauty, irresistible. And that's what God does when He is drawing someone to Christ. He makes Christ irresistible to us in that sense. So that it's not by force; it's not by compulsion."
@ Fundamentalist, at least you can't accuse universalists to do the slightest harm, as your god has already predestinated who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, no teaching would change it, no single action would change anything, I having almost become a Muslim can understand this fatalism, though I can't share such views longer.
this was used as an argument against universalism, why refute heretics if all are saved? but what about you being a Calvinist, why refute heretics if everything is a done deal? why preaching the gospel, why even posting here, everything must be a done deal in your opinion.
Simple we don't know who are His elect, so we follow Jesus command to go into the world and preach the gospel and it makes that much powerful to go out and spread the gospel because the gospel is the power that will bring the elect to Christ. I think that is absolutely beautiful
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No God did not tell us that all will be with Him in eternity. I understand how this hard for some people to understand, but it is clearly taught all through Scripture. Yes God knows when a person is born if they will be with Him or separated from Him in eternity, it is a choice we all must make.
